Answer to original question...(Are we at a point where the 5th gen & future vehicles thread should be shut down? )

I hope not. This is a good site and has a good atmosphere. Hell, to be honest, the Camaros are the only bow-tie cars I like.

 

If the source WAS illegal/unauthorized, I can understand why the link to it was removed. But why was the entire THREAD deleted??

 

Look, the damned information has already hit the street, and has been out for a LOOOONG time. Certain vehicles on the platform are going to have to release for tools in the very near future, just because of the timing and guess what???

The Tier 2/3 parts of the supply base are a step removed from the edicts that come down from GM relative to keeping information under their hats. By the time you are at a Tier 3 tool and die shop in Upper Mongolia that is going to make a tool for you to stamp a bracket, it's time to give it up.

What was published was no real secret, and this super-sleuth stuff where GM runs around trying to plug holes that are their own doing is just silly. BOTH JD Powers and IRN forecasting services have stated point blank what is coming and when, where it will be built and all kinds of other information, both of those companies make a pretty penny doing so. Cripes almighty, they list engine displacements and transmission types too.

This nonsense where some cat is theoretically being kept in the bag is just silly.

Where is the outrage from GM relative to JD Powers and IRN?

So let me see if I have this right:

If JD Powers and IRN dig up information and publish it FOR PROFIT, that's OK.

If some guy using some sharp research skills finds some info and posts it on a message board on the internet to clue his buddies in to some info that they're really interested in because they love the car, that's bad???

In a word... actually two...

That's BULLSH!T.



Cripes, we could start "G&P's House of Auto Information" and send everybody on the board nice 3-ring binders with all the new vehicle information out to 2010 AND CHARGE EVERYONE FOR IT and nobody from GM would care, but if it gets posted here the world ends??????????

IRN has been listing the Camaro BY NAME for OVER A YEAR along with the theoretical production location and engine displacements, transmission types, body styles, etc...

 

The argument above reminds me of when someone says "What's the big deal on cheating on my taxes a little? A LOT of people cheat on their taxes..." Just because some big organizations are speculating (BTW how do you know what THEIR sources are) does not qualify suppliers, even on the n'th tier, to bust confidentiality agreements.

 

Somebody please tell me precisely what agreements were broken by IRN or JD Powers. Those companies are in the BUSINESS of digging up information and SELLING IT. Their reputations are made or lost on the accuracy of that information, if they screw up, folks don't buy their service any more.

Nobody here is cheating about ANYTHING. The information is out there and has been for quite a while, and no one here is SELLING the information either.

 

If they got it in a legitimate fashion, fine. What are their sources? Do you know? If the 3rd tier is their source, then the GM Legal Dept should go after them. For that matter, perhaps someone should come after people who leak things directly on the Internet...

 

I think this whole website is destined to become too "corporate" and PC for its own good... to the point that it will lose membership. Can't post pictures because they might not be PC. Forbidden topics in the lounge (like politics?) and now, we are only supposed to cite information direct from GM?

Okay then, everybody leave and buy a non-GM car. Bob Lutz said no Camaro for 30 years.

 

1) No one cares about their sources - their customers want accuracy. If they're not accurate, fine, nobody buys it. In general, they're pretty accurate.

2) Leak? This isn't Watergate. Look, information about cars is not vital to the national defense.

NEWS is covered by the First Amendment in this country. Intel doesn't get to go after somebody that REPORTS ON the technology of their next microprocessors before they want the information out.

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


I do NOT leak anything confidential about anything to anyone if it concerns cars. ZERO. But when people who sell that information are publishing it FOR A FEE to anyone and everyone who will purchase it, the time has come to lay off the websites. ESPECIALLY the websites that support your company FREE OF CHARGE.




EDIT: Yep Guion, it is time. Shut it down. Personally, I'm out.

 

What a damned shame...

 

To be blunt, you did. I had to type that in a hurry, and I had no idea my words would be so closely scrutinized as I meant to get to the point as quickly as possible.

I will edit it to be a bit more clear yet, but I honestly wish you would have e-mailed me and simply asked me and I would have happily edited it to be more clear. Now we have a somewhat of a panic situation here.

Everyone needs to understand something about that post. I just don't want this site to be looked at as one that the folks in GM consider a threat instead of a resource.

You are correct.

However, let's not dig too deep into this, fellas. The sky might be a little cloudy, but it is not falling. Some things NEED to remain private to ensure the proper development and to make sure the auto makers can effectively stay competitive.

Sharing information like we always have has never been a problem. It is sharing of embargoed images and highly confidential documents that is going to severly hinder a future we really need to experience.

And no, this forum won't be shut down. As long as we don't become a threat, there would be no reason for it.

Calm down, everyone. Instead of jumping to conclusions, ask.

 

How does posting links to illegal documents that are stored on a different server pose any threat to this board legally? If i post a document on MY webspace (or somebody elses for that matter), i'm the one who is doing wrong, not the board. Does that even stand up legally? That's like me burning my house down then suing the match company. It's not their fualt - they just make the matches. I'm the dumbass who burned my house down. The board is simply a vehicle for people to post information - it's not responsible for what's posted. I'm surprised you don't have to sign a waiver as is before being allowed in the 5th gen group that states the information contained here is not necessarily the opinions of yadda yadda etc. etc.

So it's one thing for GM to go after the user who posted said information. But I'm unclear as to how the hosting service where information was put can be held responsible - you cannot hold the owners of a server responsible for things users put there. You think the administrator of the server even noticed or cared some PDF file was on his site? Of course not - you think they're going to check out every file a user uploads? I hope not beucase that's invasion of privacy. Anyways, that's my rant.

 

This is getting absolutely nuts. Please people, use your heads.

There is no legal issue at all.

We do not want this site to be like the others that post crap just for a few hour's of attention. We have nothing to prove, and we will not cut our own throats to get the "scoop".

This has NOTHING to do with legal issues. NO ONE ever said it did.

NO. Look into the Communications Decency Act of 1996.

You did when you created an account here, plus see my previous statement.

GM (or whoever, in the latest case) owns that information, not the web host. GM can issue a form of cease and decist. If the person who has the control over the web server declines to participate, then legel issues can proceed.

The same goes for US. If this site is ENABLING the spread of documents that are confidential, they can ask us to remove the links as part of their "damage control" (for lack of a better term). However, we don't care to even risk that because we CAN be caught in the middle and we do not want to be.

AGAIN, the bottom line is that we cannot let this site be one that the folks in GM consider a threat instead of a resource.

 

I'm not feeling very eloquent this morning.....but PacerX sums up my thoughts pretty well.

 

It seems to me that the "rules" of the internet are still in the state of flux that eventually gets sorted out....this is fairly new territory here.

GM needs to learn how to better protect sensitive information....

Posters on these type of sites need to understand law as it relates to ownership of information....

Web sites need to understand that there is an end to this "game"....LS2.com seems to be the biggest flaunter of these new rules....their administrators even seem to revel in their defiance of authority.....

BUT, at some point they will pay for this juvenile attitude....either through lawsuits from manufactureres...or a complete lockout form anything that GM does to promote themselves....and they do offer plenty of perks....Jason knows this...Josh knows this.....Branden and Zane know this...hell, I know this.

Let's be honest, these websites can be a great business venture....the admins over at LS1tech.com have some pretty great "toys' that were paid for through their efforts. BTW, I LOVE their site too....much better than the crap that passes for a site over at LS1/2.com.

The good sites do it the right way....providing a great place for mature discussions of our hobby....an environment that allows advertisers real benefit from their monthly dues.

The trashy sites promote mindless threads (read: ****, "post your desktop", etc....) to up their post count to squeeze advertisers for more money.....but it's a false facade....one that will come crashing down when advertisers look at their cost / benefit.

Eventually the good sites will survive and the others will come crashing down just as the over-heated, bloated internet economy did near the end of the 1990's.

What the good sites are trying to do....even while getting "scooped" by the junk sites...is to maintain a long term relationship with the manufactureres to ensure longetivity.

This does not mean that they become a mouthpiece for GM or Ford or DCM...but they do provide a platform for a real discussion of ideas.

Let's not sacrifice a tangible relationship for short term gain.

I think we should concentrate on a discussion of exactly HOW we deal with information that we discover, like this report for example....in a manner that doesn't threaten either side of the equation here.....but allows disemination of said information.

 

The internet is the new "print." How many times have you read a news story on the 'net...then your C/D subscription shows up and woah, you've already read 2/3's of their magazine via an on-line news source such as this site, C&G, GMI or where ever you chose to visit.

It was a hard pill for me to swallow but I realized earlier this week that playing by GM's rules had not worked and they were not willing to work with me. I've supported them, as has Walt Keegan (C&G's owner) yet, we consistently now get the shaft because of a few rogue websites.

If things like this are discovered on the internet, in a public domain then why not discuss it? The information is not password protected. The information is not something that has a disclaimer that it is for personal use and is confidential. What gives?

I'll still play by the rules, simply because I know and understand how this business works living in the area. But, I can't say an embargoed image will not be linked to, especially regarding the z06 fiasco. Those images are still on-line. Shows where the priorities are.