guionM

Earlier today I read a tool & die publication posted here that contained the tentative plans for new introductions up to 2009. Even though I once posted something similar about 4 years ago that remained here for some time, I see the one posted today by Ted is gone now.

I am hoping it's gone because the provider of that publication shared it with someone privately who mistakenly posted it, and not because this website has gotten screamish regarding anything posted involving factual information available to almost anyone & will shut them down.


I also just read Jason's post. The main theme was that we should not post, link, or otherwise share any unauthorized documents.... Fair enough.

But what also is mentioned, and what completely floored me, was that we shouldn't share "unauthorized" information as well!

I do believe anything that doesn't come from GM's media department is "unauthorized".

I really hope I misread or misunderstood Jason's post. Jason has created one of the best automotive websites in cyberspace. This website is one of, if not the TOP source of accurate inside information. Not just of Camaro or GM, but other US makers as well. It earned mention in Hot Rod Magazine some years ago, Motor Trend apparantly fishes here for information for their future cars section, it's known in Australia, is becoming popular with the new GTO community, and this has become a safe haven from trolls and fakes that infested a couple of other "insider sites" I won't mention here. In short, Jason through hard work & devotion to an idea created one hell of a website here.

I can understand concerns regarding internal documents leaked out from GM, embargoed pictures, or the like. If a supplier provides information, or a union rep wants to share info on what their plant is making next, if a test driver wants to share his experience ringing out a car he just ran, or someone wants to point someone to a publication available to dealers, toolmakers, tradespeople, or investors, and have no qualms about you posting that information under the conditon you don't use their name or you post it only in hints, then it's fair game.

This is opposed to stolen documents or pictures, which should NEVER, EVER be posted or shared. But to suggest that only "authorized" information be posted or shared here renders this thread irrelevent. One can simply log on to www.media.gm, and get info 1st hand.

By not providing links or discussions of "unauthorized info", you can also include posting links to any site carrying Brenda Priddy's spy photography or a car rag carrying a drawing based on discriptions.


As for the Camaro, take a moment to think about it. Does it actually make sense to anyone that widespread discussion about bringing Camaro back risks preventing it from happening? Does letting Chevrolet know how much you value the Camaro name going to turn GM against it? Does anyone actually plausibly think that a automobile that has had millions of dollars invested in it, hundreds of hours of consumer research, widespread dealer input if not demand, and heavy competition from across town at Blue Oval is going to be cancelled over something posted on a website? Doubtful.

On the flip side, there IS a good reason General Motors doesn't talk about the Camaro name. I don't agree with the reason, but I completely understand it, & keep it to myself. But as far as the actual 2008 "Chevy coupe", it's not much more of a secret than the next GTO is.

Again, I hope I misunderstood Jason's post (which I really believe I did) and I also hope that there are reasons the link was pulled I don't know about, or because the person that initially made it available made a mistake.

The alternative is pretty scary.

number77

yea, i'm don't want to get banned. thats why i got a thread going on whether or not i should post a link to an official DCX website.

IZ28

I think we're going a little too far here. There's no need for drastic action.

Yeah, it was posted and it was removed. Big deal done and it can still be found all over the internet. We can only give our opinions on what we saw as we do not work for GM and it still does not mean that it's going to happen the way the list said, there are still other options out there as you know Guion. I mean just forbid it if the Camaro fans get some kind of hope right?! We had basically the same thing as you said a few years ago and no one went crazy over it.

number77

there is so much info out there right now. i even found the forbiden name on a copyright section of GM.com

Big Als Z

I say that this section has stopped becoming relevant. There is no new news ,and any news is squashed and disolved into cyberspace. Whatever new news there is, I can get from GMI. I only come here in hope that there might be, one day, a break in the clouds.
As for this section, I think it should be shut down. Everyones "faith" has left them, and its depressing to read about how no one cares. Even I have had some hostility twards GM because of the Monte/Cobalt comment, but on top of that, the total lack of enthusiasim with cars coming out. I think that all GM cars are so much better then anything that was out even a year ago. But to read reactions to them, its almost embarasing to see so many little faults about the cars. Very little things that int he long run, would just be so helpful. Example is the G6. Awesome car, but why did they go with the boring electric steering? I can see in the Malibu, where this would be a nice thing to have, but if Pontiac wants to be serious, it needs to step it up and match cars like the TSX's handling.
If GM spent a little bit more money per car and not stack it 2ft tall on the hood, I think that they could move cars faster.
Like, how about HID lights for the LaCrosse and G6? How about navi for the LaCrosse?
How about updateing the Malibu's interior? Its quality is nice, as are all of GM's new cars, but now its time to work on appearance. GM has just cut a quality gap that was over 10 years wide. Now that Honda and Toyota have moved on to more pleasing, Honda anyway, interiors, GM needs to move along with it. They have the tools, because I look at Opels and Holdens, and they look outstanding.
I do see a trend in better appearance in such cas like the CSV's and Cobalt. Even the G6 is a better looking interior then teh Malibu.
Give it some two-tones, or even three-tones. Spice it up with some metalic trim. Cobalt should be the standard to all Chevy interiors. I can only hope that teh Impala impresses the crap out of me, as I expect it to.
As for a future Camaro, I hope that all the info that has been shared here, and info I have found out on the web keeps coming in. I expect nothing but a shear outstanding car.

Morginie

The reason we are here posting and reading is because of the fifth-gen Camaro. And although we may reallllly really want to post illegal information about this car, I think it would be underlying our goals to do anything that might damage the 5th gen Camaro in any way.

BigDarknFast

Unfortunately, this isn't quite the right question to ask. It's great to show GM how much one cares about the future of the Camaro by discussing what one wants in it and so on. But it's quite another thing to corroborate or reinforce certain plans and aspects of forthcoming designs...

No, it's not fair game! It's not fair to violate confidentiality agreements you make as a dealer, as a plant worker, or as a test driver. Every one of these folks has signed a legal agreement to not utter a peep about such things. How is it 'fair game' to violate such a legal contract? How is it 'ok' or 'cool' to divulge or confirm details about products in which GM or any other maker for that matter, is investing $millions in so they can someday make profits for their shareholders? In 1995, Ford would have greatly valued knowing that the 1997 Grand Prix was going to have a supercharger and 240 hp. If they had known, they could have possibly reacted in their own product plans and had a comparable car ready for 1997. Instead, 1997 arrived... and there was very little that could compare with the 97 Prix. It did VERY well in the marketplace, and the rest is history. THIS is why automakers so carefully protect their new product plans.

I do enjoy certain kinds of discussions seen here and don't think this forum section should be shut down, just managed like it is being managed. That means, guidance from the moderators when posting trends get out of hand, and selective editing of inappropriate postings. It's really up to individual members to do the right thing though. Jason can't be watching every single second and reacting with lightning-quick fingers to delete the bad stuff. Just like the plant workers and test drivers mentioned above, each member posting should take their responsibilities here seriously. ANYONE can read this board. Toyota designers and product planners, Honda VP's, Ford manufacturing engineers... anyone of whom could benefit from knowing proprietary info before its official release.

If there's any change to be made here - perhaps those violating the stated rules should be stunned or banned for doing so. As the old saying goes... "Those who can't listen... will have to feel"

There's an amazing amount of negativity towards GM on this forum. Is this a GM enthusiast board or not? I often wonder. It's not the bulk of the members, really just a minority coming and ridiculing GM out of personal bitterness more than anything. I've nothing against balanced constructive criticism and of course - the board would be boring without some spirited debate on such matters. But man. I wish some would lay off the endless pessimism and derision of GM. Jeepers - one leader at GM utters a comment about how the Monte likely satisfied some Camaro intenders (sorry - that happens to be LOGICAL), and a whole herd of members went off like a bunch of tattering old ladies ... then there's the crew (you know who you are) who believe GM can do nothing right, GM has no new or innovative products, GM builds nothing but junk, can't do this or that right, and so on. Really, anyone that down on GM should find comfort on a Ford board - there are plenty of GM haters there to keep you happy.

Ryan's LT1

I'm going to make it a point to PM you, guionM if I ever hear of anything that involves a 5th gen Camaro, as I don't want to ruin this section of the forum. I need this place to keep the faith I still have. It's really difficult when you don't hear about anything, but reading Jason's post and him saying "The future is very bright" leads me to believe that it is indeed worth it to keep the faith. Although I have said in other threads that I would spring for an '07 GTO or 'Stang if there wasn't a Chevy Coupe that interested me, that all melts away when I merely THINK about a 5th gen.

I know GM has reasons why they can't talk about the Camaro, and thats fine, It's something that I will have to deal with not knowing, my only issue is not really being able to trust GM because of the lack of word, and the lack of information recently. I definately don't think this section should be shut off, but I would like to see it be moderated better so that there are slightly more informational related posts than posts about bitching about how GM messed up their lives and that they're leaving. You don't need to announce it, just go. We'll see you in a few years.

That's just what I think though.

IZ28

You have to be a fan and a critic BDnF, otherwise they'll get the impression that it's OK to keep throwing boring mediocrity at everyone, and believe me, they'll do it, as we all know. We can be fans and try to push them to do great things at the same time. Listening to enthusiasts is the key to making really good products, they are where the excitement and usually the commitment to a certain brand is. They are the ones who study the history and find all the little facts of this and that. They are the ones to pay attention to, not the fools inside the company trying to save little amounts of money here and there instead of going all-out and making something truely impressive that people will go after like crazy. Just good enough....isn't.

BigDarknFast

So... when was this happening? 1983, when I bought my Citation X11 for a bargain price and read headlines in the sports section of it winning showroom stock road races in mid-Ohio? 1985, when the extraordinary and still-coveted IROC-Z was offered? 1993, when GM introduced the 4gen fbody with its modern crashworthiness, upgraded SLA suspension and torque-laden LT1, again for a bargain price? How about 1997, the year the mighty LS1 made its debut in the stunning C5, and the same year the supercharged GTP was born? Or more recently, with the new CTS and CTS-V? Enlighten me, which were the mediocre years to be a GM performance fan???

BigDarknFast

[response below was for a post made by another member who has since deleted their post, mentioning disappointment with cars like the modern-day Impala SS]

Well I agree, it's important to make our voices heard. My approach though is to speak on this board just as I would if I was speaking to Bob Lutz face to face. How many, seriously, would deride GM as they do here, if they were speaking face to face with a GM leader?

And this stuff about FWD being some kind of slip-up for GM. Hooey. Why do you suppose the millions (MILLIONS) of cars on which Honda and Toyota were built were FWD? FWD is in DEMAND. People desire its packaging advantages and poor-weather drivability. And yes, FWD can be made to offer nice (if not great) road performance. I've had several sporty FWD cars and they can be plenty of fun. I've also had some fun smacking down cocky RWD owners while in one, on the mean streets of Detroit

IZ28

*Yes, my mistake BDnF, here is my post: (deleted for editing so it wouldn't be quoted before I had the chance)*

Don't get me wrong, GM has put out some great cars over the years but they have been few, especially in recent years. When everything became tiny and went to FWD/V6 and looking like an appliance I'd say was the time, and we're still in it now. (Impala SS/MCSS anyone?) Most of their latest stuff doesn't best it's competition in places it should. Don't you think I know better times are coming for GM/Chevy? Of course I do, but I don't believe in letting off of the pressure until something is actually out because you just never know. They are slow and things change by the hour in GM. I fully believe GM is/was the best US company and they are. They have the best technology and can afford the best of everything, so it's time they show this and not in just a few select cars, but in all. The GM that had the strength to bring out a 427, underrated 500HP, 3000something lb., best performance for the dollar, efficient non-DOD, almost race-car spec, exotic beating Z06 is the GM I look forward to seeing more of in the next few years. Same of the GM that listened to it's fans and fixed the GTO up some and threw 400HP at it in less than a year. Although it could be better still by way of rims and recessed grills, etc. Make great cars people will talk about and remember years from now. When they show signs and efforts of wanting to take over every single market possible again and not just by a little margin, by going straight at others with undeniably all-around better products, people will have no choice but to let up.

IZ28

If I was talking to B.L. I would talk the same way depending on how he'd take it. I feel most on the internet say what they feel they could never say to employees because they would either **** them off or get into an arguement. The way people really feel about this and that comes out in places like this.

Yes, a few FWD cars are necessary, but make the special edition cars actually do something. That SRT-4 still bests the Cobalt SS and the Impala SS's are absolutely nothing special. Decent sized and RWD/V8, or what most know as "real" cars, is more important. Look no further than Chrysler for the proof.

BigDarknFast

Thanks for your fair and balanced posts IZ28. I agree with some of what you said. It's good for enthusiasts to 'keep the heat' on GM to make great stuff.

This reminds me of the IROC-Z in a way. There were a few years back in the 80's when the Mustang GT was quicker, but the IROC was still selling like mad due in part to its magnificent styling. I believe the Cobalt SS has a similar advantage over the SRT4.

IZ28

N/p. We have to keep it up, always be a fan and a critic IMO. That lets them know what people want/don't want and like/don't like.

You are right, until 87 the IROC-Z would get out-ran by the fastest 5.0 model pretty much without question, but it was a much better car in every other aspect. I guess that is a fair comparison.