Toyota to ease GM's pain
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by 85_305
Obviously the S-10 ZR2 wins handsdown to the tacoma trd; was this a trick question or something?
Uh...look again. How many awards has the Tacoma won versus the S-10 or Colorado? 90 Z28SS Quote:
"I predict by 2008 , instead of GM going under .....CamaroZ28.com is gonna have to change their name to Importsrule.com .
What the hell is up with all the import nuthuggers on this site now . Its getting so farkin annoying I gotta sift thru all the Anti-GM crap on a GM enthusist site . Outside of the tech area's this site has really grown into a joke ."
If you're so annoyed then leave. No one forces you to read these threads, and no one here is an import nuthugger; we're just stating our oppinions --we have ours and you have yours. You evidently have nothing intelligent to add or you would have spoke your mind, so why did you even post?
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by cabell84
If you're so annoyed then leave. No one forces you to read these threads, and no one here is an import nuthugger; we're just stating our oppinions --we have ours and you have yours. You evidently have nothing intelligent to add or you would have spoke your mind, so why did you even post? 

Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
What the hell is up with all the import nuthuggers on this site now . Its getting so farkin annoying I gotta sift thru all the Anti-GM crap on a GM enthusist site . Outside of the tech area's this site has really grown into a joke .
I don't post here much anymore. It's become a place for those bitter/jealous of GM vehicles and owners to carp and troll. Bleah. Time for the mods to lower a steel-toed boot on such baloney, IMHO. So... IS this a site for GM enthusiasts, or not?
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Ran into this during the path O-taka's links took me down...
bb62, corvetteforum:
As an economist who has worked both inside and outside the auto industry, you should consider some of the following:
1. Because Toyota plant are highly automated, there is no way that any assembly facility would ever employ as many as 10,000 workers. You're overstating the requirement by a factor of about 3.
2. Assembling a vehicle inside the US adds relatively little value to the economy as a whole. Assembly costs add about 11% to the typical price of a vehicle. On the other hand, the engineering costs that were spent developing the vehicle add about 15% to the price of a vehicle. So what would you rather have in the US, $20 per hour jobs bolting together cars, or $40 per hour jobs designing them? What jobs would you rather have as a legacy for your children?
3. The remaining 6500 jobs (out of the 10K you initially referred to) are usually supplier jobs that are either already here (and thus no add to the overall US economy) or are transplanted (and managed) by non-Americans. Is that what you want?
4. Because a locally assembled vehicle from a foreign owned company typically includes about 50% American value (because of the myriad of parts usually shipped in from overseas) – it represents about half of a foreign built vehicle in its effect on the economy. If we are talking about a typical non-US based import car of about $20,000, because of how money flows through the economy (what an economist might call "turns"), leasing a car like that (with the assumption that you will lease a comparable Toyota throughout your life) puts one average American out of work PERMANENTLY. So if you buy a fully optioned American assembled Toyota truck in the $40K range – congratulations you just put one worker out of a job.
5. If GM (or Ford for that matter) can do the same thing in reverse by designing cars here and assembling them in countries like China – it keeps the high wage jobs HERE. Fiat was a mistake, but only from the perspective of hindsight. It may have been a good inroad to the Italian market (until Fiat crashed and burned in its own market).
6. While GM may or may not be dying, what is clear to me is that this penchant for buying foreign products and increasing the trade deficit beyond all reasonable means is having the effect of transporting capital out of this country to other countries. A budget deficit we can handle – it's money we owe ourselves (even if our children will be saddled with the debt). A trade deficit leaves us with nothing – all for the sake of instant gratification – a true prisoner's dilemma if you asked me.
As an economist who has worked both inside and outside the auto industry, you should consider some of the following:
1. Because Toyota plant are highly automated, there is no way that any assembly facility would ever employ as many as 10,000 workers. You're overstating the requirement by a factor of about 3.
2. Assembling a vehicle inside the US adds relatively little value to the economy as a whole. Assembly costs add about 11% to the typical price of a vehicle. On the other hand, the engineering costs that were spent developing the vehicle add about 15% to the price of a vehicle. So what would you rather have in the US, $20 per hour jobs bolting together cars, or $40 per hour jobs designing them? What jobs would you rather have as a legacy for your children?
3. The remaining 6500 jobs (out of the 10K you initially referred to) are usually supplier jobs that are either already here (and thus no add to the overall US economy) or are transplanted (and managed) by non-Americans. Is that what you want?
4. Because a locally assembled vehicle from a foreign owned company typically includes about 50% American value (because of the myriad of parts usually shipped in from overseas) – it represents about half of a foreign built vehicle in its effect on the economy. If we are talking about a typical non-US based import car of about $20,000, because of how money flows through the economy (what an economist might call "turns"), leasing a car like that (with the assumption that you will lease a comparable Toyota throughout your life) puts one average American out of work PERMANENTLY. So if you buy a fully optioned American assembled Toyota truck in the $40K range – congratulations you just put one worker out of a job.
5. If GM (or Ford for that matter) can do the same thing in reverse by designing cars here and assembling them in countries like China – it keeps the high wage jobs HERE. Fiat was a mistake, but only from the perspective of hindsight. It may have been a good inroad to the Italian market (until Fiat crashed and burned in its own market).
6. While GM may or may not be dying, what is clear to me is that this penchant for buying foreign products and increasing the trade deficit beyond all reasonable means is having the effect of transporting capital out of this country to other countries. A budget deficit we can handle – it's money we owe ourselves (even if our children will be saddled with the debt). A trade deficit leaves us with nothing – all for the sake of instant gratification – a true prisoner's dilemma if you asked me.
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
When I needed to buy an inexpensive compact car, I only thought of one company, Toyota. Even though it doesn't excite me (my Matrix), it runs like a sewing machine, gets great gas mileage, and holds it's value. I don't see myself buying another GM product until they get all their problems worked out. I hated seeing plastic interior parts fall off, or rattle. I hated poor quality control on the entire vehicle, and poor resale value. BTW, you will never find passion driving a VVTi import. My Matrix's 180 hp is useless until you get above 5500 rpm. Hard keeping the thing buzzing that high in Hawaii traffic.
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
GM builds their vehicles for North American use with inferior quality as apposed to the ones they export which are built a lot better.
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo
GM builds their vehicles for North American use with inferior quality as apposed to the ones they export which are built a lot better.
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?

Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by 96_Camaro_B4C
Dude, did the Toyota dealer where you bought your Corolla hand out free crack in the glove box or something?


Compare the imported GTO to the typical Pontiac or even GM offering. I haven't sat in the GTO, but it is said to be worlds better. Same goes for Ford and their overseas offerings. It just seems that the stuff they make for the overseas markets are better. Atleast in picture since i haven't seen any of these overseas market cars up close.
It does seem like the go cheaper on the N/A offering when you compare them to what they offer over in Asia, Europe, and down under.
And i think a lot of that stems from the simple fact that highly profitible trucks/SUV's aren't big sellers there so they are forced to invest more on their cars in those markets. Here, they've long neglected cars and have put most of their effort into trucks and SUV"s. That's now changing, but the damage (perception, etc...) has already been done.
Gotta say though, their newer stuff has improved greatly. I still don't think i'd buy domestic for a compact or mid-sized family car, but they're now in the process of putting out stuff that i might consider (Ford fusion and SVT version, Saturn Sky, Cobalt SS, etc...).
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo
GM builds their vehicles for North American use with inferior quality as apposed to the ones they export which are built a lot better.
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?

I've driven just about every small car for a week (rentals) and other than the Kia, the Toyota Corolla was the worst. Cheap interior, weak engine it felt over all sub-par compared to the competition. Toyota = Buick + hype.
GM knows at least one thing, and that is how to make bad as RWD cars too (C6, CTS, STS, GTO, Solstice)
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo
GM builds their vehicles for North American use with inferior quality as apposed to the ones they export which are built a lot better.
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?

What is this ignorant drivel doing in the 5th gen forum????????????????
******** up here owns a VOLKSWAGEN and he wants to talk about quality.
Lemme alert you to another little fact, Sparky... see, this site is all about people who like FAST cars... and I'd like to point out that YOUR "CAR" has the same number of gears and less horsepower than my (dead stock, btw) MOTORCYCLE. Were aren't even going to address the fact that MY GRANDMOTHER'S BUICK will eat that little Toyota POS you own for lunch...
Simply putting that fact in your signature on an enthusiast site like this should result in an immediate perma-ban.
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by mr00jimbo
GM builds their vehicles for North American use with inferior quality as apposed to the ones they export which are built a lot better.
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?
What does that say to you?
That GM "can't" build a high quality car? Nah.
I think it's more that GM knows it's going to sell them in North America and they don't care how cheap they're made, they know some poor sap is gonna buy 'em.
Doesn't that kind of make ya upset that GM makes cars for foreigners with better quality then their own people?

Alot of people need to remember , you are just now starting to see cars that were [b]fully[b] produced under the newer era GM . Cars like the CTS , SRX , grand prix , Malibu , trailblazer , Ion ect ect ect .....were all pretty far down the pipeline to finalazation when Lutz took over .
You can bash GM mechanical quality of the past , but all the current quality reports just dont support that anymore . Chevy and Buick are some of the highest rated domestic manufactures today .
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; Apr 28, 2005 at 03:38 PM.
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by Z28x
Chevrolet Cobalt > Toyota Corolla
I've driven just about every small car for a week (rentals) and other than the Kia, the Toyota Corolla was the worst. Cheap interior, weak engine it felt over all sub-par compared to the competition. Toyota = Buick + hype.
I've driven just about every small car for a week (rentals) and other than the Kia, the Toyota Corolla was the worst. Cheap interior, weak engine it felt over all sub-par compared to the competition. Toyota = Buick + hype.
Re: Toyota to ease GM's pain
Originally Posted by Dyosis
My boss said he wouldn't be suprised if GM went under by 2008.



Was that a joke?