The reason I'm sticking with smaller fronts is to avoid tramlining, which is perhaps the most annoying characteristic ever to be associated with a car.

 

I should have mentioned that the CTS-V beat the GT500 (and by extension all the others). So there's a lot more than just curb weight.

The M3 wasn't in the test -- I don't know why. I agree that it's a good benchmark, though a Porsche Cayman would probably be even better.

 

Gee... I would have considered grabbing that Contour off of you, Charlie!

But back to your subject (I didn't have time to read the 5 pages of responses, as you know I have alot on my plate nowadays), the issue with SS and SVT is that they are 2 different things.

Plus, GM already had their "SVT". It was called GM Performance Division. And it was killed by the "old" GM.

SS is a sporty level of particular Chevrolets.
SVT is a performance skunkwerks located in the Ford Motor Company.

Chrysler's SRT is also (like SVT) a small skunkwerks operation that supplied vehicles under their own initials to all Chrysler divisions.

When someone buys an SVT or an SRT, they are getting something that is competition level made with competition grade materials. You most certainly will get out of state calls if you're selling an SVT or an SRT anything.

I'd even add Cadillac's V-series to the list.

But the SS fills a specific role as well. I'd equate it with the "GT" name that many automakers have used over the years, except that "SS" is specific to Chevrolet.

I'd take your idea, but instead of replaceing the "SS" name, I would reestablish GM's Performance Division, give those guys autonomy, a budget, a mandate (like SVT & SRT) to be profitable as a stand alone, have them use their own "GMPD" (or similar) name on the cars they produce, and produce models that add to (not replace) current lineups.

Chevrolet's SS is like Ford Motorsports developed products (Ie: Maurarder, SHOs, SCs, Bullitts, and arguably the Mach 1 (the Mach1's engine was essentially a recammed engine from the stillborn and cancelled 2002 SVT Cobra).

Ford Performance makes some great cars. But it's SVT that you'll go out of area to get. The Chevrolet "SS" name has a good lineup, but a GMPD Regal or GMPD Camaro, or even a GMPD Silverado (with perhaps SVT's different naming of it's vehicles) would go a long way towards doing what I think you are after.

Also, don't forget. One of SVT's mantras is to keep production far under demand, so to make it all work, you couldn't exactly see GMPD models on the streets frequently. Something we'd certainly need the "SS" line for.

 

My primary issue with the so-called "Z" series designations is for the most part they began simply as RPO designations. Heck if we're going to get technical in 1969 an "SS" Camaro was PRO Z27, and if you wanted the "RS" option you ordered RPO Z22.

While I'll agree, Chevrolet needs to improve their "youth" market. A simple "Sport" package with accessories galore could do this. There's no reason to kill "SS" for the performance cars like Camaro, just as there's no reason why they can't retain "LTZ" for the sedans, trucks and SUVs. Besides, revamping the entire "badge" line-up costs money, money that GM doesn't necessarily need to spend.

 

I think the fanboy posse told you that it was unimpossible.

 

I consider the current Camaro a great Grand Tourer..kind of like GTO. A street bruiser that looks good, and drives good. This idea that a Z/28 has to be some kind of handle on rails 1LE type car really does not appeal to me for a few reasons.

A.) To make the handling what you guys seem to want you would have to either make it more expensive, make the ride rougher, or unaccetably decontent it. The market for this kind of car is limited.

B.) The Camaro already costs almost $40K. If I really want something that handles on rails...for that money I can buy a C6 or used Z06. Don't give me the BS about the Camaro having a backseat..because it is even more useless than in 4th gen IMO. It is amazing GM made this Camaro off the G8, and managed to somehow keep the butt on the floor, no interior space issues the 4th gen had.

 

I don't agree. You don't need to spend a mint to get a great handling car. Look at the Cobalt SS or any number of affordable, great handling, fun to drive cars. It doesn't cost alot to get great steering feel or communicative feedback. And even if it did - like you said, Camaros are going for $40K. That's a dear enough price for a no excuses driving experience.

 

Base Cobalt Coupe starts @ $14,990. The just below SS 2LT package starts at @$18,860, SS starts @ 23,525. So, Cobalt SS has a 37% premium over base, and 20% premium over it's next most expensive model. Hardly..cheap.

You confuse me...on one hand you say that great handling don't cost anything...and is just a matter of tweaking the steering and adding feedback. Then on the flipside, you act like the Camaro is a lost cause and nothing can make it a true Z28.

Either way..my opinion is pretty much this. To make the Camaro handle on rails..something would have to be compromised..be it price, ride, or content. And honestly...I know the Camaro is a hot ticket...but I just can't see why anyone so hung up on styling would pass up a Corvette for a Camaro. The thing about Mustang is that it does not have the hypothetical Corvette ceiling.

 

I'm not really sure of what significance that statistic has, but okay...
Your confusion confuses me. Plenty of great handling cars are pretty inexpensive - and yes, I include the Cobalt SS.

Does the current Camaro lack the bona fides to be a real Z/28? We'll see. At the very least it'll be pushing alot of water uphill.

 

You say that great handling does not cost a lot...but the car (Cobalt SS) you site as great handling cost 20% more than the next closest Cobalt in price. Relative to what a normal Cobalt costs, the Cobalt SS is expensive. Apply that to the Camaro for a Z28, and your talking a $48,000 Camaro. Even at 10% (Since a Z28 likely will not have a new engine), that is is at least a $44K car. I don't think Chevy would do a Z28 for less than that honestly. And again..at that point I would rather have a Corvette.


You can't say on one hand it is easy to make a car handle good, and then on the flip side say the Camaro is a fat cow that will never handle good. I think it can handle good..it just a matter of what you want to give up in terms of ride, price, or features..something will have to give.

One thing I wonder is if the Camaro is bumping the Corvette ceiling. They are getting close in price..and I don't think Chevy wants you to be able to buy a loaded out Camaro for more than a Base Corvette.

 

I'm not sure how meaningful those numbers are or if they are even applicable to --- anything. But I get it, Cobalt is cheap and it's top model is less cheap.



I didn't say it's "easy" to make a good handling car, I'm simply refuting your assertion that only very expensive cars handle well and are fun to drive. Because from personal experience, I know that to be false.

And YOU are the one saying that the only way the current Camaro can handle well, is if it's priced like a Corvette.

 

Where do you get 40k from? The 2SS is 34k. Also, everyone knows used cars are less expensive than new cars. But give it a few years and you can buy those used discounted 5th gen Camaros.

If a Z28 is 20% more than a 2SS, you are talking about 40k. A Shelby GT is nearly $47k. I think there is enough room in there to have a different engine in a Z28 Camaro.

 

I challenge you to find a base 2SS at that price. Most I've seen are optioned up closer to $38k MSRP, then have at least a $5k market adjustment thrown on top of it. In fact most 2SS Camaros in these parts are closer to $50k!

 

It is almost impossible right now to find a SS with a winder sticker under $38K unless you order it and wait forever. It's kind like the mythical $22K 4th gen Z28. Almost every one I have seen on dealer lots is a 2SS w/RS.

 

On this point, I very much agree with you. If you look at Camaro as a "pony car", even though it's not very long, it still is a bit of a reach.

The Camaro SS is infact much closer to a Grand Touring car... a modern GTO or Chevelle SS than it is a Mustang. The Camaro is highly capable in everything, but much has been written about it's solid, stable ride and unflapable manners.

Agree that there would have to be a compromise to improve handling. But as far as passing up a Corvette for a Camaro, that's easy:
A trunk.
A back seat.
Having to actually live with the car every day... to name just a few.

To be fair, we gotta go by MSRP. Prices are going to be different depending on regions and dealer greed. on the opposite end, anyone can make up a story about how their friend's uncle's nephew's sister-in-law's brother cut them a deal to buy whatever at 50% below invoice.

The only constant and fair comparison is what the manufacturer feels the vehicle should be sold at.

Actually, I do recall a $22K 4th gen Z28 being on the lot in Long Beach California of all places when I was living there. I recall asking why you bought and paid $29K for your RS V6 when you got that car new.

Fact is that you CAN get a SS under 38K. All you have to do is simply order it at many places, and you avoid the markups. Just the same as you could do with the last 4th gen Zs.

If you can't wait, and the need to get one NOW outweighs the need to save $5,000-6,000, then that's not the dealer's or manufacturer's fault, is it?