I'm a big fan of the 3800 in all it's forms.

But I can see GM's reasoning...does it really make sense to have two seperate pushrod V6 families? It makes sense to put more resources into the 60* HV family, for a number of reasons.

On the other hand.....the 3800 seems to have nine lives. Many of the engines that were to have replaced it are now looooong gone.

Who knows....a decade from now, we may still be talking about the 3800's eminent demise.....just like we are today and just like we were a decade ago.

 

I like the 3800 fine, having owned one in my 1999 GP. However, you can put me in the category of people who think it's time to move on.

When viewed in isolation it is undoubtedly a good motor: torquey, reliable, efficient, cheap. But when you compare it to rivals' DOHC V6s it really begins to pale. I like an engine that encourages me to rev it higher, promising more power, thrust, and excitement the further I go. It makes driving it hard rewarding. The 3800 does not do that; as noted above it's tuckered out above 3500 rpm. On the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised by the last 3100 I drove, it revved quite eagerly and smoothly.

With regards to the suggestion that GM make it smoother and more powerful, I think they're near the end of the line. It already has a balance shaft and they lowerd the deck height to reduce reciprocating mass. Aside from designing an almost completely new block, it's as smooth as it's going to get. Now to get more power, they have to do it higher up the rev band. But if the engine won't run smoothly up there then there's no point.

And lastly, I think Jason's point about it being a wider 90º design is also killing it. Engineers need every millimetre of available space for packaging and crush zones, so they're really reluctant to throw an inch or so away on an unnecessarily wide engine.

 

Don't forget about emissions. It's likely that the 3800 has a tougher time with emissions than the newer designs. All the esoteric stuff that we don't really care about- crevice space, coolant flow design, port locations, etc.

 

Interesting points by all. The things I have found in favor of the engine:

1) Older than dirt, and lasts longer than it
2) Smooth, efficient operation. My car is rated for 20/30...tell me another 200hp car that weighs 3,500 lbs that can match that at this point!
3) In comparison to the 3400 in my '02 Grand Am GT (a car I loved, but is simply in a different class), the 3800...
-Gets better MPG and weighs 400 lbs more
-Is far superior in NVH characteristics
-Torquier where 90% of you are driving

Now, the downsides, IMO, to making a 3900 out of a 3500...

1) Almost as old as dirt, and still has issues. Intake leaks? Well, GM FINALLY has a replacement, revised gasket. Wait, how about alternators? Yep, they STILL eat those for lunch. Also, as these engines age, many simply do NOT idle smooth. I have owned 3 iterations ('89 2.8 MPFI, '95 3100 SFI, '02 3400 SFI)...all at one point or another idled rough.
2) Maybe more grunt on top, but less down low...
3) Simply not as refined. Maybe they can work on this, or already have...

1 month ago, I would have said, why not move to a 3900 60 degree engine? But after owning a GP for 10 days (and in the body shop already for one of them ), I LOVE this car, and the engine is a big part of it. Smooth, responsive, and great on gas. Like I said, I only nailed it once, but to 5,900 I thought it felt good. Might not have the mad rush of a DOHC wonder, but I thought it was impressive enough, for the type of car it is...

When a devoted GM buyer can no longer get his 3800, believe me, there WILL be some angry customers. As myself and 1990 Turbo Grand Prix know from selling them...people love their 3800s.

 

THe 3.5L and 3.9L 60° V6s arn't just a bigger 3.4L. something like 99% of the parts were reengineered for thse new engine.

 

just adding my 0.02---

The 3800 is probably one of the longest surviving engines in the world. But nothing lasts forever.

They do not make the 350sbc anymore. THe LS1 has nothing in common except for pushrods and 2 valves per cly.

Good power and reliabilty are still strong points for the 3800---probably a very cheap engine to produce.

But is sounds lousy at idle and is kinda harder to package.
Plus with CAFE and emissions tagets going up--an old engine with
an old design might have a tough time adapting. A clean sheet design would not.

The king is dead......long live GMs new world class 3.6L HF

 

How is an engine you can barely hear running at idle (especially when you're inside the car) sound lousy?

With all due respect, I don't know what 3800s some of you have been listening to, but they sure aren't the late model ones I've seen...

 

fair question. I am just recalling my personal experinces. I rented a 98 Camaro V6 once. I thought the motor sounded poorly. When I was outside it did sound bad idling.

I also drove an Intrigue with the 3.5L DOHC--sounded great. Idle and WOT, was esp great sounding.

 

unless the 98 and before 3800s are vastly different from the 99+ 3800 (besides the 99+ having a new TB), we're talking about the same engines. and it doesn't sound anywhere near what you're talking about. again, from my own experience. then again, it never would because it wasn't meant to since it never truely fires evenly having a 90* block.

 

I will be the first to admit the LX5 (DOHC 3.5) was a better sounding motor. Was it smoother though? Of all the 3800s versus 3.5s I drove, I never thought so...

Its been interesting to see some praise it for the smoothness of operation, while others don't like it for just that! Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion...I've just been shocked how much my own has changed...

 

The 3.8 has been even firing since 1977.

 

Let me tell you, as a guy who went from a 2000 Cavalier Z24 (5 spd.) with the Twin Cam 2.4 to a 2002 Monte Carlo SS with the 3800, that you have never heard thrashy and loud until you've revved out a 2.4 Twin Cam to redline. That motor, to me, sounded (and felt!) like it was going to put a piston through the hood at any moment. The 3800 is a friggin' sewing machine in comparison. The 3800 isn't world class for NVH, nor does it have an especially sporty note to it, but I don't think it's all that coarse or loud in my experience.

 

that may be true in the sense that the cylinders fire 60* from each other. so you're right its even firing.

i don't know what the exact term is when degree of piston separation and degree of firing separation are integer multiples of each other. that's why i said "truely even firing." in the case of the 3800 its 90* for the block and 60* for the crank.


Also, I thought you guys who are standing behind your 3800 should check this out. You're going to love this.

http://www.60degreev6.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12

I mean you can tell for yourself I'm not exactly a fan of the 3800, but these guys are ripping it apart!