Question for ya...if Pontiac is doing so well, by your own estimate, why is it considered a damaged brand by GM management, has falling sales, and is a performance oriented brand with a predominantly female buyer base? Why do Pontiac products lose every single comparison test I have seen one enter since the 1997 PONTIAC MONTANA? Scream media bias if you want, but is there some truth to that?

Ignore EVERYTHING ELSE above, and if you can justify that, you win...


When the new G8 and GTO come out...when we get a G6 with some nut to it...and keep up to the market with dynamic, relevant designs, THEN I'll shut my trap...and probably buy one! Until then? Pontiac is too near and dear to my heart to watch it rot the way it has with its current lineup. The GP lineup is ho-hum save for the niche GXP, the G6 is a great car that is a halo model and marketing campaign away from being a great seller, the Torrent is a joke based on the engine alone, the Vibe is getting pretty dated pretty quickly, and the G5 will help sales volume but is still nothing more than a re-badged, 3 year old Chevy when it debuts this fall. Aside from the Solstice, which adds virtually no sales and little (if any) profit, these are the facts.

Argue if you want, but that's reality.

 

dav,
Thanks for linking to the article...I just read it, and its spot on. "Well, its a Pontiac" said Lynn Meyers...

Is BDnF really Lynn Meyers? I remember reading that quote in Summer 2003, when the car first came out, thinking "oh...my...god. We're screwed."

I wasn't wrong...that is the kind of thinking that got the whole company where it is now.

 

Personally, I'd put a higher value on RWD than tapshift. As for HUD, to be honest I'd place higher value on a driver's seat mounted urnial drain. At least it would be practical and non-repetitive.

No damage to my claim . I said Dodge is about testosterone, tire smoke, and agressive looks. None of those vehicles damage any of those claims.

First, check the gender breakdown. Corvette has a lock on the percentage of females who buy 2 seat performance cars (Viper, and even the NSX are in the 99+% range). Corvette's about 80%. The rest of Dodge model's demographics looks alot like "The Man Show's".

Second point, tire smoke. Lets face it, Dodge has created that image. "Hemi", Viper, Ram, Charger, Caliber, soon the Challenger & Avenger... all agressive names. SRT and all the special tape and paint jobs on the Rams and Chargers, plus the SRT Neon have cast that image in concrete. Even the grille has a bullseye on it. Does the average person (or even most people here) think agressive driving, testosterone, and smoking tires to the degree of Dodge when the 2006 Chevrolet line pops up? Doubt it.

Finally, aggressive looks. The C6, Cobalt SS, & Impala SS look no more intimidating or aggressive than 'Kipper The Dog', and I've mistaken the Cobalt and Impala for Hondas enough times to be disturbing. The Corvette looks like it could get slapped by a Viper let alone devoured by the Camaro concept. Do the Chevys look pretty good? Certainly. Do they look agressive? Umm... no.

The Impala SS and Charger R/T are virturally a dead heat in acceleration. Charger V8s costs a bit more. But for the looks, Charger wins. Why? carbuying is more emotional and about image than logical numbers crunching. Plus, it gets BIG points for being RWD. Cobalt SS handled better than a SRT4 Neon, but again was a draw in performance. The Neon SRT4 was marketed better. The new Caliber has 300 horses. The Z06 out performs the Viper. But the Viper (like the Porsche the Z06 also can beat) is selling based on image and reputation. As for Trailblazer SS, I think you need to compare it to the SRT8 Jeep, then get back to me.

Though he was talking about imports and car design at the time, Bob Lutz himself nailed the problem with GM: GM tends to focus on the right side of the brain when car buying is a left side function... it's more emotion and image than it is facts and statistics. Talk statistics & peoples eyes glaze over. Show them a hot car or a great reputation or image, and you have their attention and sales.



As for GTO, sure they will be available for some time on dealer's lots, and likely to be discounted as time passes (actually, I'm kinda banking on it.... ).

Even though I think the Mustang GT is a better value, I've liked GTOs since before they were GTOs (I drove a Monaro CV6 and rode in a friend's CV8 back in 2002), and I've been a big fan of the car ever since.

Plus, don't forget all the schorched earth debates I got into over the GTOs with so-called enthusiasts back when the car 1st came out, plus my little nastygram to a GTO site when they put a Mustang on the front page to protest what they said was GTO's crappy looks.

 

I know BigDarkandDense has everyone worked up...but I think your assessment of HUD is unfair. It is very practical....especially once you are used to it. Matter of fact, when I drive my wifes car, I almost have to remind myself to look down at the gauges. I agree Crapshift on the GP is pretty usless because it shifts the same speed, and there are only four gears. However anyone who chooses the GTO over a cheaper GXP that is tenths of a second slower and has an assload more stuff just because the GTO is RWD is buying with their boner and not their brain.



Aggressive looks? They are boxes with blunt crosshaired noses. Not much styling creativity there. Neon was a ****box even with the turbo....and I am not sure about the Caliber. How many people want compact, 300HP FWD wagons?

Charger has a boring interior and drives like the tank it is. Stratus is a non factor. The RAM...despite 8000x varitions still does not approach Ford or GM in sales. DCX is the big 3 golden child of the moment....but lets remember how great things were for GM too years ago, or Ford 5-6 years ago, or Chrysler in ~1998. It's a carosel that goes round and round.


As for Pontiac, the GP is an okay car, that with a new nose, and interior would be unbeatable. The G6 began it's death spriral with being shown on Oprah. Talk about sucking the cool out of a car. A lot of Grand Am buyers I knew were young, and many were male. I remember kids in highschool wanting them. The old Grand Am GT Couple looked looked like it could enhale a Mustang (though obviously it couldn't). The GA may not have been exciting to drive, but it sure was to look at. The G6 OTH is a boring car with a boring name. To make matters worse....it doesn't even have the performance to match the other boring cars on the market...a recipe for disaster if you are pedaling excitement.

 

Hence the reason why I LIKE the fact the GXP is FWD, and I would make the same choice you just did. FWD superior in snow, and its too bad some people on here can't see past something that doesn't smoke the back tires...its really a shame IMO.

 

The new Grand Prix, is different enough that your average uneducated buyer is not thinking "Geez this is just like a 97 Grand Prix". You have to research a bit to know that. They are really thinking "Why do I need nine vents?"...or "Man that CD player would sure look good in a dump truck."

Quite simply, the GP's issue more than anything is the questionable interior styling, and the front end. Fix those, and everyone would be singing it's praises. In terms of power and total performance, the GXP might be the best performing mid sized FWD car in the world.

How are the GP sales doing anyway. I remember seeing that the GXP had a very high take rate. Those are not going to fleets I assure you.

 

Wouldn't be the 1st time the little head did the thinking for the big one.



Neons were pretty bad. Quality seemed to depend on what day it was made. The interior was made from the same stuff as toddler's toys. But the SRT-4 versions of the things were effective. Not just in smashing imports, but in winning over alot of guys who were saving their pennies for a used Civic, go-fast stickers, and a fart can tailpipe.

As for who'd want a 300 horse FWD wagon, I don't think that'd be an issue. God made people who want the power and performance of Subaru's WRXs so bad they aren't embarressed to be seen inside those ugly bastards, so findings buyers for SRT4 Calibers is childsplay.

Agree with Charger's interior, and it does drive like a tank.... a very VERY fast tank. Ram doesn't sell in the numbers Ford and Chevy does, and never will. No one will...... Ever.

I'll also give you that anything can happen in the industry at any given time. Ford's 1 hit away from being profitable again. The Impala and Camaro alone have the potential of reversing GM's fortunes. Everything in DaimlerChrysler except Chrysler can't get traction, and could easily bring Chrysler downwards.

But right now, Chrysler is the hot property, and Dodge is the division with the performance reputation.


I agree 100%. Grand Prix does need a redesign. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see one within the next couple of years.

G6's problem IMHO is the piecemeal way GM brought the car on line. The G6 has tons of potential, and is so close to jumpstarting it's image that it almost hurts. Consider a GXP with bright colors (ie: what Dodge is pouring on their Chargers and Rams nowadays) and a GTO Judge-type of rear spoiler with chrome GP GXP-like rims and modern GTO-like color coordinated guages, and called Grand Am. That's what Dodge is doing with it's Daytona, Super Bee, Rumble Bee paint, tape and spoiler jobs.

How much would it actually cost to do a package like this? a few dollars? What would the impact be to Pontiac's image? Alot!

Giving the car away on Opra was ingenious advertizing. But what about followups that would make guys want the car, or at least give the car an edge? We had to wait for the coupe, wait for the GXP, and there hasn't been much effort IMO to get these things up and running.

You're dead on about the old Grand Am. My brother-in-law had one. Although I'd never get one myself, I even liked them. Miss them things too. They sold in crazy numbers.

 

Not sure exactly what I saw, but in the latest issue of High Performance Pontiac they had a picture and blurb about the G6 that had a GTO styled hood scoop, spoiler, gfx etc that looked nice to me. Well at least gives the G6 an aggressive stance. Not too sure if it was an in house thing or aftermarket. ANyone know what I saw?

 

I just got done posting about the enhancements in this car's transmission. Go back there and read. Have you even driven a 97+ GT/GTP (same milquetoast suspension on each) and also an 04+ CompG or 05+ GP GXP? If you had, you'd know the differences in roadholding and braking performance. And no, I'm not a GM accountant, don't work for GM, and am not Lynn Myers (more on her later). I just like GM cars. Guess that's a real problem to some
Agreed. Maybe once GM is out of their cost nightmare, they will be able to indulge enthusiasts better... and the G6 is a good basic starting point for that.
Agreed. And I agree the front end could be better. The styling on the 97+ was more well-balanced and that was a factor in its success - and has become the impossible yardstick for every other Pontiac's styling ever since. Don't people think, if it were possible to have smash-hit styling on every car produced (INCLUDING the Charger, the Altima, the new weirdo-science-fiction Civic, you name it)... carmakers would jump on that? As stated above though, the 04+ does offer improvements in many other areas (actually - most areas, IMHO).
See, this is the kind of poisonous thinking that bugs me. I could say the same thing about the Honda Accord. Quick, what do the doors look like on an Accord? Hard to recall isn't it.... but when it comes to domestics, the 'in' thing is to slam and degrade them instead of celebrating what's good and getting better.
Hmm. Let me recall now. Who came to a GM enthusiast site, started a thread with an inflammatory title, and proceeded into a 'general rant' about how 'Pontiac is so lifeless these days?' Well sir that offends me. I love Pontiacs, and I greatly enjoy caring for and driving my 04 CompG and 05 GTO. It annoys me to come to a site like this and see ignorant, blind posts by biased, uninformed people who clearly have an axe to grind, by their own admission. Pontiac's lifeless? Here's some more reading homework 4u: http://www.speedarena.com/news/publi...cle_6509.shtml
I'd list them again, but don't see the point since you will simply dismiss them again as not 'tangible', 'significant', 'value-adding' or whatever other hand-waving rationalization is in vogue at the moment. Go back and read my posts again, if you dare.
My point in that previous statement - was the FUTILITY of making such a list. Heck, if your mind is that made up, might as well argue that EVERY new improvement or feature is just an update to the original design. Stabilitrak Sport? Merely an 'update' or 'extension' of the ABS. Newer, more stout trans? Obviously just an 'update' of a few parts. Nav annunciations visible in HUD? (BTW - does ANY other carmaker offer this?) Already had a HUD. Three folding seats? Hey, the car already had seats. TapShift? Just another shift lever. And so it goes. Must be rough, living in your dreary, dark world. I'm having a blast in mine, tearing up every curvy road I encounter in my Pontiacs.
Again your limited experience shows. You should read a lot more about what GTP, Ford Mustang Cobra, and Ford Lightning owners are capable of with their vehicles. OBTW this little Cobalt seems to be able to put its supercharger to good use, smacking down Nissan Skylines and the like... http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2...07/145041.html
Actually you're sounding more like a sore loser of a debate, than anything else. I agree with some of your points. Pontiac (particularly under leadership of Lynn Meyers) definitely has made some mistakes. The Oprah G6 promotion; not introducing a strong performance G6 variant at the outset with the mainstream variants; and continuing the disastrous Montana/Montana SV6 for years longer than it should have been kept around are some examples. But to paint so much negativity on the GP GXP and GTO due to other errors and limitations of GM, well that bugs me and is going to prompt some frank observations from my end.

 

BTW I'm done with this thread. The debate is over, it's going into re-hash mode now. It's been fun

 

I think the average customer would know that the car feels "old" relative to the other cars in its class.

In all honesty, I'm pushing this point about GP's more to make a point about Pontiac (and to **** off BDandF ) than out of dislike for the GP. If I were in a position to buy a car right now, it would likely be a GP GT or a GP GXP. But of course, I'm not a general customer. My reasons for buying would be a comfort with the way the car drives, a faith in the car's quality based upon the excellent reliabilty of my GP, and loyalty to Pontiac and GM. Those reasons don't apply to the guy who's looking at the GP and the Maxima and at best has no prefernence for either.

 

The question is WHY does Pontiac need a "real lineup".

All Pontiac dealerships are now teamed with Buick. It obviously makes sense to make one brand the "mainstream" one and the other the "specialty" brand.

Personally, I think it makes most sense to make Pontiac the specialty, sport brand. They can build Solstice and a RWD "G8" Grand Prix and possibly a 2-Door GTO (unlikely IMO), and leave the mainstream cars to Buick top-to-bottom. That would mean, for once, Pontiac would actually be building 100% Excitement rather than tacking plastic cladding onto secretary-mobiles.

 

BDnD,
The argument went into re-hash mode because you're under the assumption that things like an ergonomic control stalk, XM radio, Stabilitrak and cabin pollen filters are fine in place of, you know, superior materials, attractive designs and a better driving experience...which should be the quintessential mission of Pontiac in the first place.

I have driven probably 30-40 different '04+ Grand Prixs. Base models...GTs...Comp Gs...GXPs. A Comp G has more grip than, say, the "milquetoast" '01 GT I drive...but the steering is every bit as numb, and the body motions, while more subdued, are still similar. Without question. I put stickier 225/55/17s on my Grand Prix last spring, and charged down the same backroad with my '01 (with then 50k miles on it), then took an '05 Comp G. Similar motions, nearly the same grip, better braking with the Comp G. Is that really THAT big of a step forward? Automobile gave a pretty accurate assessment of what a Comp G is like, sadly. Its a nice car...but it isn't a GREAT car.

The GXP, on the other hand, is a GREAT car...but its still saddled with a look that has not won buyers over, and for good reason. It was a cheap, easy re-do on Pontiac's part. Sure, it looks different, but the basic shape is still similar. They didn't change the wheelbase...didn't change the overall dimensions...they added some sound deadening and some chassis stiffening, and called it a day with the chassis on all but the GXP. The GXP is what the car should have been back in 2003 when it debuted...THEN maybe it would have gotten some attention. Hemmings Muscle Machines, the most pro-domestic magazine out there, even said the car would have been a break through back in 2000...now, its overshadowed by more appealing alternatives.

With that said, I would buy a GXP tomorrow. I love my Grand Prix, and would love a new one. But, its hard to spend $25k+ on a car that I can't fall in love with the shape of, and is completely inferior inside to its smaller sibling, the G6. Branden just bought a GXP, and I'm jealous as hell because THE DRIVE is what makes you love that car. But you know what? To be a true success to more than just die-hard GM people, there needs to be more reason to get people IN the car first...and that starts with style and marketing.

I don't know how you can ignore what everyone else here is telling you. My "inflamatory" title of this post is reality, like it or not. The general tone of this thread makes it appear many here tend to agree. I'd like to see Pontiac get turned around before it gets Oldsmobiled. I sold Oldsmobile as well...I was only there for 3 months before the December 2000 announcement was made to kill the line. At that point? It was GM's best line, without a doubt...but it was too late. The Alero was hands down a nicer car than a Grand Am. The Intrigue, with the DOHC 3.5 and a far superior interior, put a Grand Prix to shame. The Aurora? 5 years after its debut, its every bit the car the friggen Lucerne is now...

What is the matter with demanding more relevant, better product? I have said nothing here that hasn't been said somewhere else...whether another member's post, an automotive journalist, whatever. Even Lutz himself has said product will save the day. I'm ranting here because I want to see Pontiac get the product before its too late, because aside from Cadillac, I believe Pontiac still has the best image. But it wasn't forged on what is on the road TODAY...and that is the problem. The GTO got some press, and is now pretty much ignored. GTOs, when they come in, sit for a pretty long time before they are sold. Other than the Solstice, it occurred to me that final Saturday that it is the only Pontiac right now creating any buzz at all.

Can you say that about Honda? Or Mazda? How about Nissan? I see Pontiac as being the American equivalent of Mazda or Nissan...Mazda especially has some pretty good product (namely the 3 and the 6) that Pontiac could learn from. A Mazdaspeed-6-typ3 GXP is what the G6 could use. The 3 will blow the G5 away unless its more than a Cobalt clone.

I was on the front line for 6 years, and watched interest in Pontiac just about die in a tough Northeast marketplace. People with '97-'03 Grand Prixs are often sitting on their cars, to wait and see what the replacement is for the '04+...response has been that poor. GTOs garner some interest, but not a lot of sales. G6 buyers seem to think the cars are too expensive in relation to their Grand Ams, even though thats a joke. But they keep waiting for the $4k rebates they got on their Grand Ams, and I hope it doesn't happen. The G6 is worth the price of entry over the Grand Am...but tell that to some of these people used to a cheap Pontiac...

A new G8 (please call it Grand Prix), a new GTO, a halo G6 and a Torrent with a real engine would go a long, long way to reviving Pontiac. You can't ignore that, and glaze over it by saying the new GP was some quantum leap over ther old one...it wasn't, and the general market interest proves it.

 

Hell yea I was thinking with my dick when I bought the GTO. I am all that is man.

 

What's the matter, didn't your momma teach you how to chug?

As for the GTO vs. GXP thing, I see what some of you are saying (extra features the GXP has). But for me, the tranny is the deal braker in the GXP, moreso than the FWD. I think it is a sweet looking car, and I actually don't have a problem with the interior very much. I love the front of the GXP vs. the other Grand Prixs, and the 18" wheels are money. I could even deal with the FWD since I wouldn't be using it as a burnout machine. But I like the interior of the GTO even more, and on top the RWD advantage, it has a huge advantage in power AND transmission choice. If the GXP had a robust six speed manual, or at the very least offered one of the new six speed autos (which could make the TAPshift somewhat useful), the advantage would be much narrower. But the GTO offers 400 hp and a six speed. The GXP offers (a still quite healthy) 303 hp, and only 4 speeds. As much as I love the look of the car, it just feels weird to have first gear hit 60 and second gear top 100 mph.

If that means I'd be thinking with my little man, then so be it. Again, I really dig the Grand Prix GXP, and it would be a great dd (especially if you need to carry kids / family gear, which the GTO won't do nearly as well). But the GTOs superior interior, awesome seats, rwd, extra 100 hp, and the six speed manual are worth more to me (as a guy with no kids at least) than the also cool features of the GXP.