The main reason I ordered 10 Firehawks and only 3 WS6s in 2002 was not so much because their individuality made them real winners on the sales floor, but because I had a personally bias against the insane hood. I hate the '98+ WS6 hood with a passion. I converted all my WS6 buyers to Firehawks, without fail, once they saw a Firehawk in person. People who had never even HEARD of a Firehawk drove out with one.

My father conciously chose a "plain jane" Formula over a WS6 because he preferred the smaller spoiler and lack of hood scoops. He could have afforded any of my WS6s (he didn't want to pay for the Hawks because I always loaded them with chrome wheels/Bilstein group/Auburn rear end, etc.), but thought they were overrought (sp?).

There is something to be said for clean lines...which the GTO has, without question. Clean can be aggressive too, though. Look at a G35 coupe as a perfect example...its a clean, aggressive design IMO, without being over the top. The GTO just reminds me too much of a late '90s Monte Carlo, Grand Prix or Cavalier...I am sure this will be addressed with the next iteration. I just wish that iteration was now!

It just boggled my mind on Saturday afternoon that the ONLY car we have in demand is a Solstice, and its the one car I don't have...

 

This thread has taken an intresting turn since my last stop.

Look, everyone knows this is a Camaro site, and by it's nature a GM site. But one of the great things about this site, and the most striking is that there tends to be a pretty balenced and honest view here of other cars. Unlike, say, a ricer site that constantly bashes domestic cars regardless as to how good they are, this site as a whole is honest enough to give credit where credit's due, and isn't afraid to take GM to the mat when they need too.

I'd like to think this site has made a difference at GM over the years I've been here, let alone the years since Jason and gang started this site. On the flip side, if we were too scared or tunnel-visioned to really have other cars that we admire, GM would continue with business as usual.

Also, these honest assesments coming from a GM biased website has credibility that simply wouldn't exist if it came from a website of fans of Dodge, Ford, or some other make. You aren't going to find a single person here who doesn't want a better GM, so lets quit yelping if someone points out where a competitor is better, or where we need improvement.....ummmkay?





You hit all the things I like about the car. I consider the car the spiritial successor to the Thunderbird SC in that it's a subdued (and somewhat pricey) car that has sophistication, is well above average in assembly and durability, fits in the Valet parking lot next to BMWs and MBs of the day, and is quick enough to take on just about anything dumb enough to mistake the car as something alot less than what it is (those "Grand Am" comments about GTO sound alot like those "LX-with-ground-effects" mistaken identity my cars get)..... Mustang GT's still a better value though. (sorry.....couldn't resist.... )


Seriously though, Grand Prix is the soul of Pontiac & GTO is IMO where Pontiac needs to go. There's no other American brand that can be Pontiac, and Pontiac shouldn't try to be another brand. An American version of BMW (in chassis dynamics, handling, and understated class) is perhaps dead on, but Pontiac is also about being a bit futuristic in design. They should keep that.

Dodge on the other hand is THE testosterone performance division. They're all about tire smoke, over the top performance, and looks that scare small children and animals. The only women who'd buy a Dodge are the ones heavily into cars or at least a bit on edge. There ISN'T going to be another car division in the US that's even going to attempt to appeal to only 48% of the new car buying public (men) who hopes to live to be around the following year. The market's only big enough for one "Spike-TV"!



It's far beyond ironic and very close to hilarious hearing people who love or own Camaro SSs instead of Z28s talk about how the Daytona or Super Bee is just a paint & stripe package on a Charger. It's a few steps past curious that people say Pontiac needs a RWD LS2 sedan, yet say because a Charger has 4 doors, it doesn't do it for them. As for the GXP G6, I have yet heard of any male who's eager to buy one, yet you could barely bribe your way into an SRT-4, and the supercharged Cobalt seems to be leaning the same way.


Sad truth is when the GTO goes away, Grand Prix's GXP will be the only excitement game in the showroom...... At least till Solstices and especially the upcoming GXP versions no longer have 30-50% markups.

 

I'm fine with someone pointing out where a competitor is better. But many of the statements here are OPINIONS and as such, they can be challenged. Dodge makes the best affordable sport sedan? Nope, not if HUD and TapShift matter to you. And as for bias, I make no bones about favoring GM vehicles. Other members are free to state their piece - and so am I. Frankly I couldn't care less about the 'credibility' of our collective opinions here. I enjoy my yelping privileges
Yep, agreed. (Although as I've proven before, Mustang GT prices in the real world are only slightly below that of a comparably equipped GTO).
!00% agree.
Why do I even need to remind you: Chevrolet C6 Z06, Cobalt SS, Impala SS and Trailblazer SS all do damage to the above claim.
It will take a couple years for the GTO to disappear from showrooms, if history with the Firebird is any indicator. Maybe even til the next GTO is out.

 

I don't know the exact GXP numbers, but it is a fact that GP sales are up 30% in the period of comparision. Actually GP GXP sales are up ONE HUNDRED percent in the period since they are new since last spring
303 HP/3xx TQ stands out plenty well, at this car's street price. Is it a direct competitor with an Acura RL? No, not on price nor features. Is it a good competitor for the Altima SE-R and the Acura TL? You betcha.
This is true, GM's cost structure is crippling it as a carmaker. GM is taking steps to correct this
If you knew, strange that you didn't mention it. You also didn't mention the G-meter and transmission temp gauge built into the GP GXP DIC... remote start... six-disk-in-dash CD XM stereo... tire pressure monitoring... or cabin air filtration, all of which are new since the now-archaic 1997 design. Did those features slip your mind too?
I see what else is out there. There are some fine cars. But the GP GXP is a great performance value and is loaded with modern luxury compared to its segment. That's about as real as it gets.
I happen to like this control very much. Activating, accelerating, decelerating, and deactivating the cruise are all much more intuitive than in my previous (1998) GTP... and there is dynamic visual HUD annunciation of each input to boot. Works very nice IMHO.
Looks like I know a little more than you, at least
Read and behold, from a thread over at www.clubgp.com :
Pontiac's got plenty to offer... both now and in the future. I'm sure though it will never be enough for some cynics... for those folks of lofty tastes, we have been blessed with vehicles wearing the almighty Dodge nameplate

OBTW some homework reading for the GM cynics here ... http://ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71012

 

Are you an accountant for GM? Also, you lecture us on learning about GM, and yet it seems as if you've never even seen another car in the world. If you had, you would brag about 6-CD changers and tire pressure monitors as if they were gifts from above. I'm well aware that there are new features in the '04+ Grand Prix, and I'm sure JasonE does too given that he sold them. The bottom line though, is that the car just doesn't drive that much differently than the old cars. Where is a the sporty tranny that we've been waiting for? If you actually looked at clubgp you'd see that the achilles heel for our cars is the tranny. I don't care about how many speeds a car has, but what about something that can handle the power and let the car rev to redline? If the GP had this, the 06 GT would be burning off 6.0 second flat 0-60 times and the GXP would be looking at mid to low 5's.

The question to ask is, how does the new GP compare to the competition the way the 97 did. When you look at the '97 GP compared to its contemporaries, it's almost laughable. The style, power and handling this thing offered was head and shoulders above the Maxima and Accord. Would you really say that now?

How about the other Pontiac that pisses me off - the G6. Do the people within GM realize that the performance version of this car should have more power than a Honda Accord? Next year the Camry will blow it away. Does the G6 get anything, or does the good stuff go to the proven Saturn brand?

 

We hear alot of talk on enthusiast sites regarding what Pontiac needs.

Invariably, it always comes down to this: A Zeta GTO, a Zeta Grand Prix coupe, a Zeta G8. What will or will not happen with Zeta and Pontiac still remains to be seen, I'm not holding my breathe.

But Pontiac has two products NOW that could be successfully leveraged to define it. Solstice and G6. Solstice is moving along quite nicely in it's role as a limited production halo vehicle.

But G6 has so much untapped potential. If Pontiac had free reign to cherry pick any and all off the shelf parts for G6, Pontiac - I think -would be in a much more enviable position. Imagine a G6 as successful as Accord. Or as exciting as Altima SE-R and MazdaSpeed6. And maybe with a VW style ad campaign.

A turbo 2.8 HF V6 would be so sweet in G6. Or even the Solstice GXP's 260 horse DI turbo Ecotec. I mean, there is so much that is obvious even to the casual observer.
The G6 is merely good when it could be...no... NEEDS to be great. Anything good that may come to Pontiac in the near future, will be because of what happens with G6.
Time to quicken your step boys.

 

Here's my idea for a Real Pontiac Line up.

Although don't expect to see this complete line-up before 2010, if ever. But the idea is built around what I would like to see by then.

The Pursuit - small sport compact, FWD, coupe only, with 2 Dohc I4 motors -170hp (2.4 Ecotec - base/GT) & the 220hp (2.0L S/C Ecotec - GXP).

The Vibe - small sport wagon/sedan, FWD/AWD, with 2 Dohc I4 motors - 150hp (2.2L Ecotec w/VVT - base) & the 205 hp(2.0L S/C Ecotec - GXP)

The Solstice - small sport 2 seater, RWD, Convertible, with 2 Dohc I4 motors - 177hp(2.4L Ecotec - base), & the 260hp (2.0L Turbo Ecotec - GXP)

The Grand Am(G6) - mid-size, FWD, coupe, sedan, & convertible. 1 Dohc I4, 2 V6 models. The base model is powered by the 170hp (2.4L Ecotec), the GT models is powered by the 210hp(3.5L VVT V6), and the GXP models are powered by the 270hp(3.9L VVT V6).

The Torrent - Mid-size SUV/sport wagon, FWD/AWD. 2 V6 models. the base gets the 210hp(3.5VVT V6), and the GXP model gets a 260hp(3.9L VVT V6).

The Firebird - mid-size, 2+2, sport coupe/convertible, RWD. 1 V6 model, & 1 V8 model. The base model gets the 245-270hp(3.9L V6), and the Formula/GXP gets the 325-350hp(LS - based V8).

The Grand Prix - Large sports sedan, RWD. 1 V6, & 2 V8 models. Base model - 240-270hp(3.9L V6), GT model gets the 325-350hp(LS-based V8), The GXP model gets the 420hp(6.2L LS3 V8).

The GTO - Large 2+2 sport coupe/convertible, RWD, (Flagship model), 1 V8 motor. The 430+Hp(6.2L LS3 V8).

Now this lineup screams performance.

 

Wow..... fun thread....

BDnF I don't think anyone is saying the GP is a worthless car with no options, I just think that most people out there would probably pick a Charger for comparative prices.. I personally dislike the chargers looks, the 300s looks, and just about anything else DCX... but even being a loyal GM fan I would probably not be considering a GP...

 

krj- 1168 I realistically see one less RWD car on that list, and the Solstice should probably be out of production by 2010 correct me if I am wrong?

perhaps instead of the small FWD sport compact, you could see a small RWD coupe on kappa?

I don't know, just thinking aloud..

 

Thank you...thank you...thank you.

The G6 deserves better. It deserves a better ad campaign. Better offerings. The Grand Am and the Grand Prix (as guion correctly pointed out) have always been the heart and soul of Pontiac...everything else was gravy. I've said this myself for a long time. The GP dropped the ball when it debuted for 2004...no matter what BDnF cares to say. Without question, the GXP is a fun, GREAT car. But if it stood out from the pack more, it would sell better...end of story! That leaves us with the G6, successor to the Grand Am. While it is a solid car, the hardcore performance geeks aren't attracted to Pontiac anymore. They like Subaru WRXs...Altima SEs and SE-Rs...Legacy GTs...even EVOs. A 280-300hp AWD G6 GXP would have been a home run...how much NICER of a car is a G6 than an Impreza??? I mean, really...

But we didn't get it. We won't get it for awhile. And that is a pure shame...period.

BDnF,
Cabin air filtration is not a tangible improvement. Neither is an intuitive cruise control stalk. Even the guys at Club GP think the g meter is a crock. XM wasn't even around in 1997, so how can you knock the '97 car for not offering it? Finally, we had a BETTER stereo offering in 1997, depending on how you look at it...the 12 disc in the trunk You think I forget these things???

Yes, the GXP is a great value, as I pointed out when comparing it to the Charger R/T that I am sorely dissappointed with. But you know what? Its saddled in a design that, inside and out, leaves many people cold. No one will argue this when the previous GP was such a success BASED on its design.

Cabin air filtration will not solve that issue

 

Sure, it would be nice to see a 300hp AWD G6. A (small) fraction of G6 intenders would buy it. But have you thought about women? How many gals are on fire for such a car? Women buy a lot of cars, and a lot of Pontiacs. My wife for example - couldn't care less about 300hp and AWD. And as for the new GP - I have already granted it's not the huge hit the 97 was... but it would be NICE if peeps here would keep some context. The new GP is doing well, and the GP GXP is very well-liked by its buyers. But instead it's as if the new GP is another Toyota Echo Nothing like a little drama.
Yes, I DO think you have forgotten and overlooked these things and others, like the dozen new luxury features in the new GP GXP... two of which you've made a lame attempt to dismiss so far, and ten of which you've tried to ignore (think I forget these things? ). I'll give you one point... the stalk could be debated since technically the 97 had one too... but having it separate and more intuitive is definitely new. BTW how much more tangible do you want, than a new stalk? It's right in your hand...

I get the feeling I could mention another dozen (or 50) improvements in the new GP, and the cynics here would just once again tsk-tsk and skirt the list...

Speaking of which. There's been a lot of comparison to Dodge herein. Let's talk about Dodge for a minute. Where's that Challenger... is it in the showrooms? When are they going to fix the lame truck-wannabe grille and kangaroo hip quarter panels on the Charger? Why does the Charger's engine nearly stall out under full-throttle shifts, as happened on my test drive? Why does the Charger's spoiler feel like it's made of (thin) recycled milk bottles? Why did Dodge have to 'Durango-ize' the Caliber when going from concept to production, leaving it looking more lame than ever? Why did they choose a turbo for the SRT Caliber, instead of a more responsive s/c option? Where's a hi-power Avenger variant, when's that coming out? Why does the Charger SRT8 cost so much, compared for example to an 06 GTO? It's not whoppingly faster, and Lord knows it's not offering stellar MPG. Where's Dodge's HUD, TapShift, and triple folding seats for the Charger? Why does the Charger weigh in at an incredible 4200 lb when equipped (AWD) to be able to keep up with a GP GXP in the snow?

(It's fine if you want to postpone answering, until you've had your Dodge and dodge-questions training )

 

The Grand Prix is somewhat of a personal favorite of mine. My first new car was a black '95 Grand Prix SE Coupe with the deluxe interior goup and 6 way power seat. We just sold our 2001 GTP coupe last week. I still have the 300 GPX press kit at home. I drooled over that car... There is no question that the '97 GP was a tremendous car for the time. In many ways it was head and shoulders above the competition. However, to say things like the current car is no better than the previous is rediculous. The 04 Grand Prix has %80 ALL NEW parts not shared with the 97-03's. Everything you see and touch is different and the vast majority of what you don't see and touch is different. The cars ride the same... Riiiiiight. The all new magnesium front subframe makes no difference, right? And is there any version of the old car that could handle with a Comp G, much less the GXP upgrades. The '04 and up is a better car in every way (except in front end design IMO) power/handling/features/NVH. Every redesign can not be an epiphany of automotive achievement. The competition is much better now that it was then. The margin for improvement above them is not what it was, unless the GP is to be equipped with photon beams and a flux capacitor. I do agree that Pontiac should spend more time innovating and offering features with real benefits that others do not, as that is part of their heritage. But too say the Grand Prix isn't a much better car than the previous one one is just silly and ignores the facts..

 

Anyone who says the G6 deserves more than it got is exactly right. Aside from the exterior (which was actually pretty true to the concept), the G6 is remarkably dumbed down from what it should have been. The 285hp supercharged 3500 in the concept would have kicked some major butt if it weren't true. Ditto for the AWD system...a sarcastic kudos to GM for giving that segment to Ford as opposed to offering an exciting looking AWD volume vehicle. And I'm not gonna talk about the interior because that dead horse has been beaten enough.

However, a G6, even a properly done G6, won't be enough to save Pontiac. In all likelihood it'll still share major components with the Malibu, and therein lies the problem. Pontiac can't offer anything unique because GM doesn't want it stepping on Saturn's toes, or Chevy's toes. Even the Solstice will cease to be unique thanks to the Saturn Sky and rumored Chevy Stingray. I'm not saying they need their own engines, trannies, platforms, etc., but I'd like to think GM has bigger plans than to rebody Chevies and make them Pontiacs.

 

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...rix/index.html
And it's true. You can quote all the stats you want. I've driven both gens a lot, and they're still the same car. The new one is better, just not better enough. Sales prove that.

Those who hooray these products might think you're being good GM enthusiasts, but you're actually paving the path to the company's extinction. GM's new cars need to be head and shoulders above the competition. GM needs more cars like the '97 Grand Prix's - great cars - and less like the '04 - good cars.

 

Comments like your last sentence are more than a little grating, and prove to me you really are a pain in the a**, but hey, its a free country. So to help in removing your head from said a**, consider:

1) Pontiac is about performance. If you don't have performance, I don't care how many women buy your products. True, a GXP like I described wouldn't sell 100k units a year, but it would move units, at a higher price point, which aids profit, and adds a halo effect to the entire G6 lineup. I'd like to see you argue that point.
2) A dozen NEW luxury features in a GP GXP? List them. And don't give me any crap about an ergonomic control stalk, either. A TANGIBLE change is something that really adds value to something...something that can give an edge. Changing the stalk does not add VALUE in the sense we're talking about.
3) Give me 50 improvements...hell, give me TWENTY...that aren't merely an update of an original part of the '97+ design. You sound like a Toyota commercial, where they'll claim their new whatever has 4 million, 87 thousand improvements over the last one. The core Grand Prix doesn't handle better save for the GXP, doesn't add any real features aside from XM and a g meter on a GXP, sure as hell doesn't look better, isn't substantially more reliable, etc. etc.
4) I'm not a huge fan of the Challenger either, but at least it has an aggressive look to it. Whether you like it or not is completely subjective, but it sure appears to be grabbing a ton more attention than the current GTO.
5) Tuners love turbos...why would you knock the decision? Whereas the SRT-4 Neon is infinitely tunable, go talk to a Cobalt SS owner about the ECM from hell and the disadvantage of having a superchager in a car like that. That market doesn't care about torque...modability and power is what matters.
6) The Charger is overpriced...did anyone say it isn't? This argument is about Pontiac. Dodge isn't perfect either...but it sure has some product that gets your attention.

What does Pontiac have? THAT is the point of this argument. Question: Does GM do anything wrong, in your opinion? I'm not even sure why I'm continuing this argument, because you'll completely ignore any point anyone else makes, like every other argument I've seen you get in. Enjoy your GTO. I'm happy for you. Just realize there are other people here that can see a little bit broader landscape, and while they love GM, they also want GM to make BETTER PRODUCT.