Not for long I'm guessing.

 

The problem is that everything is OLD, and feels it. I test drove a Grand Prix GXP recently, and don't get me wrong, it was a really nice car. However, it was still without a doubt the same car as the 2000 GTP I stepped out of, with the same flaws, the same general feel. And of course, the GXP is Pontiac's best effort - the only real Pontiac.

It aggravates me that Pontiac is a "damaged" brand now, because, as Jason E pointed out, it wasn't so a very short time ago. GM is doing the damage right now.

As I've said before, my gut tells me that Pontiac is on the chopping block. What pisses me off is that they aren't getting a chance to suceed. For all people say Olds got screwed, at least they got an injection of new product. GM is just taking away product from Pontiac and then gasping with surprise when the brand doesn't sell as well.

 

What in the world, have you not driven a new GTO? The GTO is a great car, and an astounding performance value in the realm of RWD V8 coupes. As for the GXP, it's head-and-shoulders better than the 97+ GTP's it replaced. Power/tq - much better. Handling, brakes - better. Ergonomics - better (seats, TapShift, integrated Nav/HUD). Quality - better. Safety - better. The new GXP is better than the previous Grand Prix iteration in just about all the key areas. Only those determined to find something to complain about are able to think of a way to criticize it...

 

Question: Is there anyone on this forum you WON'T try to undermine or just **** off in general? I tend to shy away from your typically-biased, fan boy arguments, but you're really starting to **** me off...

1) I don't need to be at a Dodge web forum. Other people can have opinions that differ from yours, and I'd say I've probably contributed as much to this forum, if not more so, than many of the members on here. So kiss off.

2) Why do you disagree with me? Because your 1997-era-looking GTO is such a hot piece? Tell me, how do you figure? A GTO is a nice car, but is as exciting to look at as lawn furniture, and everyone knows it. The ONLY Pontiac that draws people into a showroom these days in any serious amount is the Solstice...period. Nothing mainstream excites people, and the GTO is a niche car at best...and not an overly loved one to anyone but their owners. They're great cars, but have not had anywhere near the impact the Solstice did, because they simply look BORING. Is Pontiac heritage BORING?

3) As much as I love the GXP, it is NOT "head and shoulders" above a '97+ GTP. Why? Its an evolution of a car that rocked the performance world in '97, but it has nowhere near the impact the '97+ cars had because in a crowded market, it doesn't stand out. ITS SALES PROVE THAT. GM loyalists love it. GP loyalists love it. Hell, I love it. But the general populace couldn't care less...AND THAT'S THE POINT. It looks like what it is...an updated late '90s car. Its gained 63hp since 1997. It got 2" larger wheels, handles moderately better, and offers zero luxury accomodations over the 1997 model. Those are the facts.

4) The general populace used to embrace Pontiac's MAINSTREAM models. Remember when people used to buy Grand Prixs all the time? Grand Am GTs? What do they buy now? Uhm, uh...

5) What would I know, I'm a former Pontiac salesman who's now a Dodge nut-hugger, apparently


If you'd get your head out of a$$ long enough to see the bigger picture (which based on every post of yours I've seen simply will not happen), you'd see the writing on the wall. I've been one of Pontiac's biggest fans for the past 6 years. Believe me when I tell you...there ain't a whole lot to crow about these days. Other than the Solstice, what draws in the enthusiastic customers? NOTHING. Your GTO is great for GM faithful, but does nothing to draw in anyone else...

But hey, what would I know? I've only dealt with Pontiac customers for 6 years now...

 

My dad owns a new GTO, and I've driven it a lot. It's a great car. However, it's only one car, and even if it sold well would not have redeemed the entire brand. The whole thing with it being canceled without an immediate replacement is concering as well.

And as far as the Grand Prix, it's a slight improvement over the 97+, but not nearly enough. I would disagree with the ergonomics being better - it was hard to see past the C-pillar. And in reality, it's not about how much the Grand Prix has improved, but about how much more the competition has improved.

Really, I don't want to pick on individual models. We have three Pontiacs in our driveway, so I don't think we're one of those people who are "determined to complain." But I think you'd need to have anaively positive outlook on things to think Pontiac is in good shape right now.

 

BDnF,
You know, I used to think I was too much of a GM fanboy...then I read some of your posts. I no longer feel that way. I'd say that I hope you become enlightened someday, but it simply will not happen. The things you post remind me of things GM management must say to each other. Rather than look at the bigger picture, and pay closer attention to the market, they keep up with "business as usual."

And before you accuse me again of being a Dodge fanboy, consider that in another post, I said I'd personally pick an MC SS over a Charger. I'd pick a GXP over a Charger. The problem is, I'm in the minority. Dodge has created excitment for itself with clever marketing, and a bold product. The GM's have game, but they don't look the part...they do not stand out in a marketplace that is forever getting tougher. A '97+ GP did that. A '99+ Grand Am GT did that.

Today's lineup? It doesn't do that...and the GTO is the epitome of that fact.

 

First off, I haven't called anyone a 'fanboy'. I did however object, as I believe I'm allowed to, when I see someone posting all kinds of gratuitous praise for Dodges when from my point of view, they are not all that really (and I've test driven a Hemi Charger). Want to go praise your new brand you sell? GREAT... knock yourself out. But why are you surprised you don't get unanimous applause here? (Hint: check the URL of this site). Now for you the person, it's nice you have also posted your praise of cars like the MC SS. But it seems you are always liking them... but never seem to manage a way to BUY one. I realize everyone has a budget to follow. But it seems you are perenially posting about 'liking to buy' a GM and seldom 'buying a GM'. Can you see how some might find that disingenuous? So to those here who actually do truly adore and regularly buy GM cars and trucks, your window-dressing praise often rings hollow (especially now with your widely self-publicized move to go sell vehicles for 'screamingly successful' Dodge).

I've had GM cars and trucks all my life. It's one of the few things (aside from my family) I can count on and really enjoy. I would hope you could comprehend, I don't come to a site such as this anticipating excited babble about how great the new Dodges are. And you know what? I like the Challenger concept for example, and hope they make one someday (I'm sure you will be here to tell us all about it in excruciating detail ). But I don't come to this site or even this forum section hoping nervously to see new threads about it. Guess where the reading public goes for that.... yep the place I mentioned earlier. Obviously this forum section accommodates such chatter... but don't be surprised if it gets challenged here too.

This stuff about the 97+ Prix. Yes, it was a magnificent design. It was a breakthrough product for Pontiac. Sales rose more than 60% for the Prix in 1997. Wouldn't it be great if every new vehicle for every new maker was a major hit! No more Toyota T100's, no Echo's... no new-age Thunderbirds or Chevy SSR's... what a wonderful world that would be. But designing and marketing cars today is a crap shoot. (Wasn't it Bob Lutz who said, the CTS clinic'd worse than any other car in GM's recent history?) I will be the first to acknowledge - Pontiac has made some mistakes. I'd love for there to be zero production gap when the GTO's end this year, vs. startup of the next. But there will be a gap. I'd love for the new GP GXP to be the perfect home-run hit the 97 GTP was (alas, it's only the BEST winter-capable V8 sport sedan today offering integrated HUD/nav and TapShift). Humans do make mistakes... even the Crossfire you tease around about driving as a demo - is often lambasted as a flop for DaimlerCX (based on the absurdly high days-of-supply floating around today). Maybe you will feel right at home with all those gleaming Crossfires since your dealer supposedly had so many gleaming Pontiacs sitting around. I don't see what gives any member here the right to be ridiculing someone who loves GM cars here on this site, while at the same time announcing proudly how great Dodge is and what a thrill it will be to sell "America's" (Germany's?) new performance brand. Seriously, I think you will find a better reception on a Dodge forum.

 

By the way a lot of this is incorrect (no WONDER you're moving on from trying to sell Pontiacs)...
The GP GXP does have exclusive features and performance in its street price bracket, as I've listed above. Its sales? You mean, the ones which were up 30% this February, versus last February? And gaining 63 hp... yep that is so lame. (Never mind the MASSIVE HP/TQ numbers the imports have had to scramble to put out there, in trying to (1) catch UP to the 97 GTP, then (2) KEEP up with the output of the LS4 in the GXP, and (3) MAKE up for their own errors in overestimating the output of their engines). And to say there are no new luxury accommodations vs the 97... well that just shows how little you know about what you were selling (BTW there's nothing more frustrating than a salesperson who is ignorant of his/her wares!). The GXP has voice and HUD navigation annunciators - how about the 97? GXP has three folding seats - how about the 97? Tapshift? Not in the 97. Separate ergonomic cruise control stalk? not in the 97. Stabilitrak Sport? Not in the 97 either. Whew - make sure you get some training on those Dodges!

 

I have to disagree with some of this. I don't think GM is "doing the damage [to Pontiac] now". The damage (which I think has been somewhat blown out of proportion by the media) was being done back in the days of the tacked on cladding. The newer stuff, like the Solstice, GTO, G6, and to an extent, the Torrent are working to undo the "damage", though it will be a painful process for a few years.

I think the GP does need to be replaced (something rwd would be cool, hopefully much better looking than the Charger, which won't be hard to do...), but I don't think it really feels that "old" when riding in or driving it.

Anyway...

 

I think the best new Pontiac, without question, has to be the G6. I think the GTP is a very competent car, and deserved a little more respect than it got in the C&D test a few months back. The Torrent is 60hp or so shy of where it should be...otherwise, it was well executed. But with that engine? I simply don't know what GM was thinking...at all...

BDnF,
I have never had a post of mine locked yet, nor do I intend to. I have a great deal of respect for Jason, this board, and the members of it. So, without getting into too much of a p!ssing contest with you, consider...

1) I don't see any response to my claim that a GTO is as exciting to look at as lawn furniture.
2) Do you honestly believe GP sales were up 30% in February because of cars like the GXP? Uhm, no. I'd love to see how much of that increase was attributed to fleet sales, just like when we were all awe struck last year when the Malibu sold so well...it was FLEET SALES. Pontiac deserves better than FLEET SALES. I'm not alone in saying "the GXP is a great car...I never see them on the road though." Granted, that is not a scientific poll, but come on...assuming the GP gained 30% in one month because of a niche model like the GXP is completely ludicrous.
3) 240hp was phenomenal in 1997. 303hp today isn't even class leading, let alone phenomenal. We have 298hp Nissan V6s, for crying out loud! Without question, the LS4 is a great engine...but it is not enough to STAND OUT.
4) I too have owned GM cars my entire life, and more than likely always will. So why don't I buy one of the cars I've always waxed poetic about? No incentive is enough to make me a buyer...which is GM's biggest issue. If the new Grand Prix looked as nice as the last one did, I'd already own a GXP. If the Monte Carlo got a real makeover for '06 instead of a nose job, and got rid of some of the remaining cheap interior touches (plastic interior door handles in a $30k car? Come on...) I'd already own one. The problem is that despite my GM loyalty, I want something WORTH BUYING, IMO. I could get a brand new MC SS for $23-24k roughly, with my $3k GM card incentive expiring in 3 days...that's a great car for the $$. But it isn't enough to make me spend nearly $500 a month of my own money, when what does it give me over my own 2001 Grand Prix? A few interior goodies, 103hp, and uhm, uh...if I NEEDED a new car, I'd probably buy one. But it doesn't have enough tangible advantage over what I already own to make me give up a perfectly good 5 year old car...and THAT is GM's problem many times. The cars have moved forward, but many times the competition moved FURTHER.
5) If the cars were so great, would GM need to keep cutting prices and offering incentives? Ask yourself that...
6) If Pontiac had such compelling MAINSTREAM offerings, would the division be referred to by GM's own product czar as a damaged brand?
7) How is a folding rear seat, that was a completely ASININE omission from the '97+ GP (left out to add structural rigidity, for crying out loud...) somehow a tangible benefit to the new car, that makes it so superior? It doesn't...neither does a newer version of the same HUD that was offered in 1991. Tapshift is a joke that I have never seen an '04+ customer even bother using. It adds no functional superiority to the car, and most customers laugh when I point it out...but hey, if you said it makes the car better... Stabilitrak I will give you, but when its standard on a baseline Hyundai Sonata these days, but is only available on a Grand Prix starting at $28k, HOW is that some sort of gotta have breakthrough? The '97 car offered tangible advantage to the competition...ask yourself if the new one does. THAT was my point. And you think I need to brush up on my product knowledge? You didn't tell me anything I didn't already know...

But I think its you that needs to wake up and see what else is being offered out there. When the new GTO comes out...and the new G8...and the G6 gets some real nut to it...THEN I don't think we'll be having the same argument over Pontiac. But when the only exciting "gotta have" car is an 18,000 unit per year Solstice? Are you REALLY gonna sit there and tell me everything is fine? Get real...

 

Seperate ergonimic cruise control stalk, why those geniuses! I must trade in my car right now! I'm afraid it's you who sounds like the frustrating salesman - like the imbiciles who wanted 10k over sticker for an '04 GTO when there were 10 on the lot and only 2 people in the showroom (my father and I). You really do need to wake up. If you knew anything about Grand Prix's, you'd know that GM managed to ignore the one feature of the '97+ car that actually needed updating - the tranny. Again, this is coming from someone who likes Grand Prix's - I'd have no problem replacing mine with an '06. However, Pontiac is not going to grow and succeed by riding the coattails of its older products.
At least in the cladding days, they had some image. It might not have been a stellar image, but it was an image nonetheless. And as much as the press hated the cladded, in your face designs, they did succeed in the marketplace. Those Grand Am's people like to criticize were everywhere when they first came out.

Now what does Pontiac have to its name? It has two cars that are actually new - G6 and Solstice - and GM is being kind enough to give versions of these to Saturn. There's the GTO - a magnificient car, but when will there be another? Beyond that it has a '97 Grand Prix that has been magnificently updated with tapshift for the overpowered automatic, folding seats, and an exterior that only a mother (or GP owner) could love. Then we have Chevy rebadges that bring new meaning to the word rebadge.

I'm just calling GM out for tossing Pontiac under a bus.

 

Thank you...

BTW, I forgot the ergonomic cruise stalk...that was to be the cornerstone of my argument

FWIW, as you would, I would also love an '06 model GP...but to be honest? Cars are a ton of $$$, and I'd be a lot happier to part with my own $$$ if the GP simply looked better. This is where better design would go a long, long way...

The '06 is a very good car, but is it a GREAT car? Short of the GXP (which has the same design flaws all '04+ cars are blessed with), I'd have to say no. My Pontiac-loyalist father agrees, and talked me out of buying a blue green '06 GT last fall for that very reason...it isn't a GREAT car, but a GOOD car.

I never thought I'd be told I needed to gain product knowledge, or to go enjoy my Dodges FWIW, I know the Crossfire is a complete flop...but as a free demo? Methinks I can manage

 

I'm not going to jump into this argument except on one count. The GTO deserves far better than being described as being" as exciting as lawn furniture". As far as I'm concerned, it was the most car I could get for the price in '04 and stands as the "go to" choice today when talking RWD performance. Some may find the clean lines of GTO to be bland but I'm not one of them (I would even like to remove the spoiler). Mustang is not in the same class and the Charger is a stone-ugly sedan: not boring,no, but actively hideous. All the sticker editions of the car make it even worse. OH, by the way, I think the Challenger is a work of art.

 

Calling it as exciting to look at as lawn furniture is not an attempt by me to bash the entire car. Quite the contrary...I like GTOs a lot. How could I not like a mid-sized, comfortable 400hp coupe? Its a great car...but it looks like a big Cavalier. It LOOKS like a '90s car. My '01 GP GT is sportier looking, sadly. The Charger is a train wreck in terms of appearance, IMO. But, it does get noticed, and far more people are wowed by a Charger in appearance than a GTO.

This is by no means an attempt to bash GM and all its products...I just think Pontiac deserves better. No, I KNOW Pontiac deserves better...Pontiac I always thought of as the heart and soul of GM, even if it sold 1/4 of what Chevy sells. Its been their image line for younger people for as long as I can remember...and that is fading fast, outside of the Solstice.

 

Agreed!

I've got about 10 minutes to eat lunch today, so I will have to address some of the other points later. I do agree with some of what JasonE has said today. And let me offer an apology if I implied anyone was 'ignorant', I intended to refer only to knowledge of the new GXP's feature set, nothing more. I hope this thread stays open too and will restrain any future posts accordingly.

BTW it's interesting how this 'GTO lawn furniture' comment has caused a stir (I didn't react to it last night since didn't have time). I had a 2002 Trans Am... and one of the key reasons I SOLD it was, I was tired of the overwrought styling on that car. I'm just about the dead-center target market for the new GTO - I gladly embrace its relatively subdued performance styling. I love the hood scoops on mine... but I would have cringed if they were as tall as those on an LS1 WS6 TA. I like my GTO's spoiler - but I remove it every summer and drive half the year with none at all - just for a different more classy sleeper look.