that car would've sold like mad when gas price was high

 

This is my theory...

GM always can rationalize what it wants. When the spent all the money on Saturn, it was because they "Have great dealers that people love". Three years later now that Saturn failed and they are saying they have to close it because the seperate dealer line costs too much.

When they expanded Saturn, they said Buick would only be 2-3 models here, and be big overseas. Now Buick is down to 3 models, and of all GM's brands would be the least missed it disappeared from US shores...and what does GM do? They close Pontiac (2nd biggest car division)...and expand Buick with rebadged cars originally designed for the Chinese market. The reality is...G6 sales are down 82%. Pontiac needs new valume cars...and rather than spending the money to do it...GM would rather bring stuff designed for Buick China here that is already paid for. What will happen is everyone who walks in a Pontiac dealership will turn right around and go buy a Mazda or Nissan.

So..if GM is around in 3 years...I think we will be seing Buick get scaled back, and Pontiac make a comeback. That or the BPG line gets killed all togethor.

 

Like what, FUTURE?
When you say that, I think GTO and G8 and what disappointing failures they were/are.

Maybe if GM had an unlimited budget, but of course that's not the case.

 

First off, the G8 and GTO were not "disappointing failures". GM needs to realize (they didn't "get" this with the Trans Am either) that it can't market a $35,000 muscle car to 20 year old males. Likewise, it can't market a de-contented Holden to BMW owners. It's the same sense of 'compromise' and too little stretched too far that seems to stagnate in ALL of GM's culture. For example, the size verses price relationship of the new entries like Equinox and CTS. GM thinks it can "cover the whole market with one COMPROMISED" entry instead of focusing on the competition and building something that is COMPARABLY better.

Your question is the million dollar question (And honestly, I'm not sure if I have the right answer)

I think this is where the marketing team comes in. GM needs to accept what Pontiac is (was at it's best) and BUILD on that. Pontiac IS a brand of rebellion. Pontiac IS a brand or performance innovation. Pontiac IS a very popular brand with riske styling. Pontiac HAS failed in some instances, but should not be apologetic for it. That's the turf that comes with being the "rebellious" one.

Pontiac IS NOT just V8, RWD performance. Pontiac IS NOT just muscle cars. Pontiac IS NOT an everyman's brand. Pontiac WAS NEVER supposed to be Chevrolet.

So, you take whatever line up you want (For example, the Corsa, G8 and Solstice) You define them in relation to what Pontiac means in the majority of peoples minds (For good or bad, people still see power and performance when they think of Pontiac's glory days) and then you find some way to RELATE that to the lives of todays youth.

Pontiac is a brand of expression (much like Scion is supposed to be and Mini is) To cultivate the kind of LOYAL buyer that a niche brand needs, GM needs to allow the product to be AN EXPRESSION of that buyer. The Pontiac brand needs to become a LIFESTYLE. Therefore, Chevrolets with Pontiac grilles and appliance sales numbers cannot exist at Pontiac (If GM is serious about the niche brand thing)

If I were running the show, I'd take something that requires minimal investment, tune it to either be fun or outrageous on the performance side. (READ: either way it needs to have attitude and personality) and market it as a lifestyle. G6, G8, Corsa, Solstice... Whatever.

The current products? What does a G6 express to the average person? (I opted for something as bland as a Camry, but different) What does a G8 express to the average (not you and me) person? (I wanted a BMW, but this Pontiac will do) What does the Vibe express to the average person? (This was cheaper than the Toyota and looks a little better)

The BIG selling point for domestic cars is DESIGN/EMOTION. They'll NEVER be better than Toyota and Honda at trying to be Toyota and Honda (And most consumers, despite the studies piling up in their faces, tend to take this view) Pontiac is never going to be BMW because it isn't BMW. What Pontiac CAN be is an appealing "Pontiac" (all those traits that I described) that outperforms a BMW and outclasses a Nissan

GM better shape up and recognize that it HAS to change the perception of its brands or, we'll be in perpetual decline until the company dies.

 

If I have a product with sales down 82%, the last thing I'm going to do is spend copious amounts of borrowed cash to create more of that type of product.

 

Well, we can spin it anyway we want, we can rationalize it, point fingers of blame, but.............


The bottom line is that the GTO sold at 2/3rds of it's projected sales volume and even that took 5 years to clear 3 model years worth of inventory -- even with cash on the hood. The G8 is selling at 50% projections with a nearly 1 year unsold inventory on dealer lots, and production has (temporarily?) been halted.

I think "disappointing failure" is an accurate description here.

 

They are down because the product is obsolete. If was styled better..it may be able to get by being obsolete like the Grand Am did...but it is terribly boring. Boring+Obsolete=Fail.

 

I have to agree. Great cars, yes. But they haven't sold well of late, especially the G8s. I saw an advert on TV last night and GM is practically giving away the G8 GT. If the Camaro were not coming out soon and if I did not already have a great relationship with the service guys at my Chevrolet-Cadillac dealer, I might take a serious look at the G8 GT. But then that's its problem. Its a new model that is geared more toward the performance minded GM enthusiast. The majority of which are probably leaning toward Camaro or CTS-v if they're not die-hard Pontiac guys; and if they are, most of those guys are upset the G8 GT has 4-doors and isn't sporty enough to be called Firebird.

The G8/Commodore would have been better off coming here as a rebadged Holden sold as a Chevrolet Caprice. GM could have even reduced some of the options making it more affordable as a big Chevy family car.

 

You are now my hero!

Intresting point. Pontiac, despite being the excitement division, has had the highest percentage of female buyers of any brand sold in the US.

Another intresting point.

Most buyers were even unaware Saturn was even part of General Motors. GM could have done alot with that, but instead starved it of product for nearly a decade.

The current lineup IMHO is spot on, but seems to have come a little late.

Of course I disagree with you there. Personally, I feel the Camaro is one of the few vehicles GM has done perfectly (at least from the time it was debuted). But it's not simply that I disagree with.

The G6 had a splendid plan when it was created. It had a manual. It was to have a turbo version. The aftermarket was to get involved. It was to come in an AWD version. At the time, it actually was on par with similarly priced imports in percieved quality. It was supposed to be focused more on retail sales than rental and fleets.

But instead, shortsightedness again ruled. Fleet & rental sales was seen as a way to boost production numbers. Items that were planned (AWD, turbo engines, etc) were canned due to GM being being pennywise and dollar foolish. Promoting the G6 with the aftermarket stalled, and the G6 that was suppose to bust open the tuner market (and had the biggest shot of anything GM has done) not only fell flat, but crashed and burned.... and it was self inflected.


I know that I'm facing a firestorm over saying this, but I stick to my initial claim from that thread: If GM is pushing back Impala, game's over. GM's gone.

I just got off the phone with my son. He's a huge GM fan, although he sold Chryslers for a living till recently. We talked alot about the new Taurus SHO. I pointed out (and he saw here) that the current Impala will now continue being around till 2013. His reaction, quote: "That car will be played out by then".

When the economy recovers, mid sized family cars will lead the way back in both sales and profits. The Ford Taurus is but the starting point of what GM will be up against from other makers from Chrysler to Toyota, all which plan new family cars between now and 2011. If GM plans on throwing money on the hood of Impalas to move them next to the competition's newer and therfore better cars instead of making sure their number 1 seller is tops in it's class, then GM as we know it is truely done.

GM will nop doubyt become profitable doing this, but there is one problem that is the "800 pound Gorilla in the room".

GM will be in debt at least $90 billion assuming it gets all the government loans it's seeking, and it already owes at least $70 billion as we stand here today.

When GM had all it's divisions running full tilt in a booming economy, they were making $4 billion annually (taking nearly 20 years of top level profits to pay back). That's an amount I have trouble believing a smaller GM will make in a shrunken automotive market.

I don't think there's too many creditors willing to take 60 year financing plans.

Depends on why sales are down. With the G6, it's very, very clear.

1. It became dependent on fleets and rentals to boost sales numbers.
2. Families are tightening their budgets, and the G6 is a family car.

Thing is, historically, this is the segment that recovers 1st when the economy does because of pent up demand.

In short, not spending money on a family car before the economy recovers leaves you at a huge disadvantage.

 

The "Caprice" would be in competition with the Charger as the G8 is now. "Caprice" to many means "cop car". I think police would be interested.

Not that I'm saying itd be a bad idea. I certainly know quite a few police officers that'd jump on getting a G8 as a patrol vehicle... But that'd mess with your volumes and resale/residuals.

Really, there was no "best" solution we could agree on. I think we can atleast mostly agree it should have atleast been the new "Grand Prix".

 

I wouldn't exactly call 0% financing "giving away" G8 GTs.

But I see your other points. That's why I feel the G8 should be repositioned.

At the moment, it's positioned as a muscle sedan. Hood scoops, high performance, etc. But (ironically) with coupes back, that doesn't play as well as it might have before, so IMHO, Pontiac needs to aim for sophistication... BMW-ish marketing.

I think the hood scoops should go. It already has great lines, and I don't see the budget BMW (or even budget CTSv crowd) crowd being turned on by them.

GM will never sell 50K G8s because, like the GTO, the market for sophisticated, high level, RWD sports sedans isn't as high as the fairly common, regular-car RWD Dodge Charger. That is something the RWD Impala would have achieved.

 

Funny you should mention a G8 cop car...
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/26/a...t-cop-cruiser/

 

...of this analysis.

Charlie, you completely fail to take into account the economic conditions. To single out the G8 when everything GM has is down on the order of 50% -- well I won't speculate. I just say that I don't understand it.

The G8 came out just as gas was hitting $4/gallon and then soon after the economic meltdown happened. On top of that, it had virtually no incentives until November, while other products had lots of dollars on the hood.

Now maybe you consider just about everything GM is selling to be a disappointing failure....

 

That's an advantage of the G8. They don't need to sell it at a loss just to keep a factory going.

I agree with you that they need to come out with the no-scoop edition.

 

Hood scoops have nothing to do with it. In terms of styling the G8 is a winner. The issue is..it looks plain in pictures..that don't show things like the depth of the front fender flares. This car so could have been marketed as "widetrack".

The problem is...like the GTO..the G8 is somewhat compromised for this market. It is a GREAT car..I love it...but it has a few things that irritate me that I can see other people not dealing with. Like the huge LCD radio with no NAV..rotary **** for seat rake adjustment and so forth.

Another factor is the lack of a cheap V6. If the V6 model came in at under $20K after rebates...volume would pick way up. Of course GM can't make money that way.

Lastly, I also blame the name. G8 is cold..and no one has a connection to it. GTO and Charger...though very different from what some people feel they should be..at least have some emotional connection. This car should have been a Grand Prix or Bonneville...GM seriously dropped the ball there. I honestly think Bob Lutz's dropping of all of Pontiac's names is one of his biggest misteps.