Was it really that hard to make Pontiac sucessful?
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Well I'm old enough to know the Opel Catera was once sold as a Cadillac... 
But my point is this... All this talk about managing the GM brands is a waste of time. Imagine how much time GM must spend to distinguish its models from its other models. It creates an 'Us vs Them' mentality within the organisation... and that's probably where most of the bureaucracy lies? It might have worked in the past but these days the world is a very different place.
Back to my main point... if the Astra was deemed a suitable vehicle for North America, then it would be very easy for GM to sell it as a Chev if (for example) Chev, Cadillac and GMC were the only brands within GM.
But my point is this... All this talk about managing the GM brands is a waste of time. Imagine how much time GM must spend to distinguish its models from its other models. It creates an 'Us vs Them' mentality within the organisation... and that's probably where most of the bureaucracy lies? It might have worked in the past but these days the world is a very different place.
Back to my main point... if the Astra was deemed a suitable vehicle for North America, then it would be very easy for GM to sell it as a Chev if (for example) Chev, Cadillac and GMC were the only brands within GM.
Best versions of Omega had Chevy smallblocks. There's a no suprise...
Last edited by 1fastdog; Feb 24, 2009 at 11:06 PM.
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There are roughly as many Dodge dealers as there are Pontiac dealers. Both the G8 and the Dodge Charger are roughly the same size, and have the same engine lineup. Yet in December, Chrysler sold 5,414 Dodge Chargers while GM sold only 1,479 Pontiac G8s. Dodge also pushed 97,367 Chargers out the door next to GM's 15,002 G8s! Even discounting fleet and leese buyers of the Charger, that's still a sound flogging although the G8 is the better car...What gives?
That being said..you can almost get V6 Chargers for less than $20K if you play the cars right. Also don't forget the Chargers fleet market..which the G8 does not have. Lastly, there are a TON of V6 Chargers on the road..where most past on the V6 G8 because of how close it is to the V8 in price.
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Holden had a clue and went with the smallblock.
Was there not a Clubsport version out of HSV that preceeded the Monaro, but a four door sedan?I remember going to Cadillac pitching the Holden Omega as being far more focused to Caillac rather than the Opel 6 cyl.version. Now this was some time ago in a galaxy far far away...
Thus I came to know about Sigma and it's intended progression.
Nonetheless, Omega was a great platform if you put a smallblock in it.
Last edited by 1fastdog; Feb 24, 2009 at 11:21 PM.
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Realize that Pontiac has two completely different images. Among automotive enthusiasts, it has this great performance muscle-car heritage. But among civilians it's perceived as a tacky, low-class purveyor of "chick cars".
Saturn had brand and customer-service scores off the charts and GM couldn't figure out what to do with it. Do they have the money or ability to fix Pontiac's image problems? I doubt it.
2. Losing volume by reducing Pontiac to a niche label selling the G8 sedan and Solstice will bring that 267K down to roughly 40-50K best case.
To pay back what they currently owe (not to mention what's being borrowed via taxpayers) I don't see how it can possible be done lopping off over 200,000 in sales from a division that has the potential of substantially increasing that number by focusing the brand and a strong halo vehicle.
To pay back what they currently owe (not to mention what's being borrowed via taxpayers) I don't see how it can possible be done lopping off over 200,000 in sales from a division that has the potential of substantially increasing that number by focusing the brand and a strong halo vehicle.
But who are we kidding? Over in the Impala thread, we're bitching about how GM can't even afford to refresh their #1 car, and the G6 probably comes in at priority #5 or #6 in the overall scheme of things.
I think we need to accept that only way GM is ever going to become profitable is to give up marketshare and focus on selling high-profit retail products. That means a focused line-up with strong advertising and no more Impala/G6 fleetmobiles.
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Something to think about-
In January 2009
Buick sold 4248 cars (LaCrosse/Lucerne)- Down from 9216 for those models in January 2008
Buick sold 2712 Enclaves- Down from 3390 in January 2008
Pontiac sold 7464 cars- Down from 20,513 in January 2008. (Vibe was best selling car, G6 fell from 13,942 in January 08 to 2,468in January 09
)
GMC sold 3,233 Acadia's Down from 7318 for in January 2008
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...=3&docid=51817
What this tells me is that Buick and Pontiac have had almost similar percentage declines...however Pontiac's decline is almost soley based on the G6 loosing 82% of it's volume. If they had a Grand Prix the numbers would be higher. I never thought I would see the Vibe be Pontiac's best selling car
Also, it shows me that the Enclave..which everyone points to as being the saving grace for Buick...gets outsold in the same showroom by the Acadia depite normally being within $1000 having similar equipment.
In January 2009
Buick sold 4248 cars (LaCrosse/Lucerne)- Down from 9216 for those models in January 2008
Buick sold 2712 Enclaves- Down from 3390 in January 2008
Pontiac sold 7464 cars- Down from 20,513 in January 2008. (Vibe was best selling car, G6 fell from 13,942 in January 08 to 2,468in January 09
)GMC sold 3,233 Acadia's Down from 7318 for in January 2008
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...=3&docid=51817
What this tells me is that Buick and Pontiac have had almost similar percentage declines...however Pontiac's decline is almost soley based on the G6 loosing 82% of it's volume. If they had a Grand Prix the numbers would be higher. I never thought I would see the Vibe be Pontiac's best selling car
Also, it shows me that the Enclave..which everyone points to as being the saving grace for Buick...gets outsold in the same showroom by the Acadia depite normally being within $1000 having similar equipment.
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What this tells me is that Buick and Pontiac have had almost similar percentage declines...however Pontiac's decline is almost soley based on the G6 loosing 82% of it's volume. If they had a Grand Prix the numbers would be higher. I never thought I would see the Vibe be Pontiac's best selling car
Vibe is the only Pontiac on the roads here in the Bay Area CA. (of course they build them here)
Also, it shows me that the Enclave..which everyone points to as being the saving grace for Buick...gets outsold in the same showroom by the Acadia depite normally being within $1000 having similar equipment.
But then I remembered seeing some terrible commercial for BuickPontiacGMC where they told people to go to BPGSomething Dot Com and I realized that trying to market three distinct brands through the same channel is horribly confusing. And therefore a dealer might actually do that.
I don't really have any emotional attachment to Pontiac or Buick, I just think that GM has to something about this marketing wart hanging off the side of Chevrolet.
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But then I remembered seeing some terrible commercial for BuickPontiacGMC where they told people to go to BPGSomething Dot Com and I realized that trying to market three distinct brands through the same channel is horribly confusing. And therefore a dealer might actually do that.
I don't really have any emotional attachment to Pontiac or Buick, I just think that GM has to something about this marketing wart hanging off the side of Chevrolet.
I don't really have any emotional attachment to Pontiac or Buick, I just think that GM has to something about this marketing wart hanging off the side of Chevrolet.
So if this is so confusing, GM should stop making it so confusing and just offer one or two distinct brands. Simple.
What GM should do is beg the govt for money to eliminate the damaged car brands. Then start fresh with Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC as it's profitable.
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I'm going to go a few steps out on the ledge and say Pontiac didn't even need to do as much as what most here propose, if even that. I don't feel Pontiac even needed more than 1 new additional all new model.
Consider a few things. Discounting the current credit crunch and the fear people have making big purchases when scared about being layed off: The G6 is already one of GM's best selling cars. Regardless as to how many went to fleets or not, the G6 sold. The G8 is conceeded as an exceptional car even to those who don't like US brand cars in the media. Solstice, while not exactly blazing the planet in sales, handily outsold the darling of this class of car... the formerly named Miata. The Vibe actually looks good, and sells well despite not fitting into the Pontiac "image". The G5 coupe, believe it or not, actually is selling very well for a single model coupe.
Pontiac is already GM's 2nd biggest car division. To drive home the excitement image, Pontiac simply needed to tweak the cars they already had and thrown in a new big coupe. Performance upgrades are cheaper than all new sheetmetal.
The G5 already looks debatably better than the Cobalt. Why doesn't this "excitement" Delta architecture coupe have the LNF engine the Cobalt has?
The G6 is NOT an ugly car. One highly regarded GM fellow that comes here recently views the G6 as a blank canvass... and he's absolutely right. It has great lines, but is very understated. You can do everything from stripes to ground effects without the car looking overdone. The Grand Am was highly successful by looking like a boy-racer. It wasn't for me, but it it sold well in excess of 200,000 cars annually. Like the G6, it's priced right. If you want to add some meat to it, GM already had turbocharged Espilons in it's global portfolio. The G6 already was the only NA-GM Espilon with a manual. If there was any car that had the potential to blow a hole in import sedan sales and image, the G6 "IS car"!
There are roughly as many Dodge dealers as there are Pontiac dealers. Both the G8 and the Dodge Charger are roughly the same size, and have the same engine lineup. Yet in December, Chrysler sold 5,414 Dodge Chargers while GM sold only 1,479 Pontiac G8s. Dodge also pushed 97,367 Chargers out the door next to GM's 15,002 G8s! Even discounting fleet and leese buyers of the Charger, that's still a sound flogging although the G8 is the better car...What gives?
IMO, GM needs to lose the hoodscoops on at the very least, the non-GT models. I'd even go so far as to limit the scoops to the GXP. Charger is going to alot of people who want a full sized car, that like the aggressive looks but not necessarily looking like they are ready to race at every turn. Also, the G8 is a great looking car in it's own right. I'd even go as far to say it's styling is better than any sedan GM makes outside of the CTS. It manages to look just as classy as what's coming out of both BMW these days. Although I personally dislike sedans, I feel this is a sedan that is GM's premier sports sedan. It should look like it instead of a boy racer. The sales are definately there as the Charger proves.
The Solstice has nothing wrong since there is a strong performance backing. Now that it has a coupe it's darn near perfect. THE perfect sports car IMHO.
Vibe is the best looking crossover thingy on the road, IMO. Sales are bearing this out.
The only new model Pontiac needs is a RWD 4 or 5 passenger coupe. Since a vehicle like that would be expensive to create, and we aren't exactly talking about 100K or even 50K per year sales volume, it would have to piggyback off of another vehicle. A Commodore based G8 would be ideal, but so would a reskinned low-to-no optioned Chevrolet Camaro. I wouldn't go the Firebird direction, but I would use the old Grand Prix coupes as the model.
The old Grand Prixs were extended wheelbase versions of the G-body, that had godawful powerful engine options, but focused on ride, style, and comfort as much as speed and performance. Sort of like the last GTO, but wrapped in a distinctively Pontiac body whose flash and style makes it fit into valet parking right nest to BMWs and Merceds Benz. A halo car that defines Pontiac, and what they are about.
Pontiac doesn't need a huge revision of it's lineup. It doesn't need a wholesale redesign or replacement of it's lineup. It's already a strong seller.
Pontiac outsold Buick last year by 2 to 1!
It simply makes no sense whatsoever that a company that will need to pay back taxpayers and private bondholders over 90 billion dollars, and typically makes no more than 4 billion in a good year in a good economy with 7 North American divisions operating at full capacity to jettison a division that sold 268,000 vehicles last year for a brand (Buick) that couldn't move as many cars combined (91,803) as Chrysler moved 10 year old PT Cruisers (99,585) or Chargers (97,367), and is barely 4k cars ahead of what Lincoln sold lsat year (87,828).
At 44,706 sold last year of 137,197, Buick's existence centers around the Enclave and the fact that it's big in China.
But even Pontiac's likely-to-be-killed G6s (140,240 sold last year) handily outsells everything under the Buick name combined.
Something I would certainly consider if I was on the hook for $90,000,000,000, and didn't want to take the next 50 years to pay it all back to become a profitable, net positive company again.
Consider a few things. Discounting the current credit crunch and the fear people have making big purchases when scared about being layed off: The G6 is already one of GM's best selling cars. Regardless as to how many went to fleets or not, the G6 sold. The G8 is conceeded as an exceptional car even to those who don't like US brand cars in the media. Solstice, while not exactly blazing the planet in sales, handily outsold the darling of this class of car... the formerly named Miata. The Vibe actually looks good, and sells well despite not fitting into the Pontiac "image". The G5 coupe, believe it or not, actually is selling very well for a single model coupe.
Pontiac is already GM's 2nd biggest car division. To drive home the excitement image, Pontiac simply needed to tweak the cars they already had and thrown in a new big coupe. Performance upgrades are cheaper than all new sheetmetal.
The G5 already looks debatably better than the Cobalt. Why doesn't this "excitement" Delta architecture coupe have the LNF engine the Cobalt has?
The G6 is NOT an ugly car. One highly regarded GM fellow that comes here recently views the G6 as a blank canvass... and he's absolutely right. It has great lines, but is very understated. You can do everything from stripes to ground effects without the car looking overdone. The Grand Am was highly successful by looking like a boy-racer. It wasn't for me, but it it sold well in excess of 200,000 cars annually. Like the G6, it's priced right. If you want to add some meat to it, GM already had turbocharged Espilons in it's global portfolio. The G6 already was the only NA-GM Espilon with a manual. If there was any car that had the potential to blow a hole in import sedan sales and image, the G6 "IS car"!
There are roughly as many Dodge dealers as there are Pontiac dealers. Both the G8 and the Dodge Charger are roughly the same size, and have the same engine lineup. Yet in December, Chrysler sold 5,414 Dodge Chargers while GM sold only 1,479 Pontiac G8s. Dodge also pushed 97,367 Chargers out the door next to GM's 15,002 G8s! Even discounting fleet and leese buyers of the Charger, that's still a sound flogging although the G8 is the better car...What gives?
IMO, GM needs to lose the hoodscoops on at the very least, the non-GT models. I'd even go so far as to limit the scoops to the GXP. Charger is going to alot of people who want a full sized car, that like the aggressive looks but not necessarily looking like they are ready to race at every turn. Also, the G8 is a great looking car in it's own right. I'd even go as far to say it's styling is better than any sedan GM makes outside of the CTS. It manages to look just as classy as what's coming out of both BMW these days. Although I personally dislike sedans, I feel this is a sedan that is GM's premier sports sedan. It should look like it instead of a boy racer. The sales are definately there as the Charger proves.
The Solstice has nothing wrong since there is a strong performance backing. Now that it has a coupe it's darn near perfect. THE perfect sports car IMHO.
Vibe is the best looking crossover thingy on the road, IMO. Sales are bearing this out.
The only new model Pontiac needs is a RWD 4 or 5 passenger coupe. Since a vehicle like that would be expensive to create, and we aren't exactly talking about 100K or even 50K per year sales volume, it would have to piggyback off of another vehicle. A Commodore based G8 would be ideal, but so would a reskinned low-to-no optioned Chevrolet Camaro. I wouldn't go the Firebird direction, but I would use the old Grand Prix coupes as the model.
The old Grand Prixs were extended wheelbase versions of the G-body, that had godawful powerful engine options, but focused on ride, style, and comfort as much as speed and performance. Sort of like the last GTO, but wrapped in a distinctively Pontiac body whose flash and style makes it fit into valet parking right nest to BMWs and Merceds Benz. A halo car that defines Pontiac, and what they are about.
Pontiac doesn't need a huge revision of it's lineup. It doesn't need a wholesale redesign or replacement of it's lineup. It's already a strong seller.
Pontiac outsold Buick last year by 2 to 1!
It simply makes no sense whatsoever that a company that will need to pay back taxpayers and private bondholders over 90 billion dollars, and typically makes no more than 4 billion in a good year in a good economy with 7 North American divisions operating at full capacity to jettison a division that sold 268,000 vehicles last year for a brand (Buick) that couldn't move as many cars combined (91,803) as Chrysler moved 10 year old PT Cruisers (99,585) or Chargers (97,367), and is barely 4k cars ahead of what Lincoln sold lsat year (87,828).
At 44,706 sold last year of 137,197, Buick's existence centers around the Enclave and the fact that it's big in China.
But even Pontiac's likely-to-be-killed G6s (140,240 sold last year) handily outsells everything under the Buick name combined.
Something I would certainly consider if I was on the hook for $90,000,000,000, and didn't want to take the next 50 years to pay it all back to become a profitable, net positive company again.
I've often said that Pontiac has 1) The most COMPLETE line up at GM 2) One of the most interesting line ups in the industry and 3) (If GM executed the products just a WEE BIT BETTER) one of the most appealing and best selling line ups in the market. 4) If GM knew HOW TO MARKET ANYTHING AT ALL, we wouldn't be in this situation.
The product wasn't the problem; as always with GM, it was the execution. And, as always, GM doesn't seem to understand that.
(Same sh*t; different day)
Last edited by FUTURE_OF_GM; Feb 25, 2009 at 09:31 PM.
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I dont think you're on the ledge at all. I just think the G8 ST, G8 Coupe and G8 Sportwagon should be brought over along with the Sedan. The development costs wouldnt be very large to get them over here, Holden would enjoy the extra volume, and having a fleet of nice RWD vehicles in showrooms would certainly have atleast a little street cred.
)
My take...
GM-NA should concentrate on Cadillac, Chevrolet, Buick, and GMC.
Pontiac should be the entire HOLDEN line.
Saturn should be the entire OPEL line.
IMO
GM-NA should concentrate on Cadillac, Chevrolet, Buick, and GMC.
Pontiac should be the entire HOLDEN line.
Saturn should be the entire OPEL line.
IMO
Buick should be Opel from Astra up. Pontiac should be Holden/HSV and OPC and Saturn should be Opel from (and including) Astra down and be marketed heavily in urban markets... You know, where GM desperately needs sales.
Meanwhile, Chevrolet sold 1,801,131 vehicles -- over twice the number, with substantially the same product line as BPG. Three bad brands does not equal one good one ... GM needs to figure this out.
Last edited by FUTURE_OF_GM; Feb 25, 2009 at 09:32 PM.
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Sure, it's possible that Pontiac might still have a future. I personally believe that to do that will require just one very polished, youth oriented, product --- with the legs to make a splash --- and I don't mean with 12 guys on the internet still waiting for the Firebird or GTO.
I hate to overuse the Mini analogy, but that's the sort of niche/cult energy I'm referring to. Just one car. Get it right, market it right.
I hate to overuse the Mini analogy, but that's the sort of niche/cult energy I'm referring to. Just one car. Get it right, market it right.
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2. Losing volume by reducing Pontiac to a niche label selling the G8 sedan and Solstice will bring that 267K down to roughly 40-50K best case.
To pay back what they currently owe (not to mention what's being borrowed via taxpayers) I don't see how it can possible be done lopping off over 200,000 in sales from a division that has the potential of substantially increasing that number by focusing the brand and a strong halo vehicle.
To pay back what they currently owe (not to mention what's being borrowed via taxpayers) I don't see how it can possible be done lopping off over 200,000 in sales from a division that has the potential of substantially increasing that number by focusing the brand and a strong halo vehicle.
Remember; Buick was supposedly "intentionally reduced to niche status" as of 2005. Which in one way (The way that Enclave was supposed to re-establish the brand) makes sense now that it is expanding and in another way seems VERY counterproductive and typical GM.
Buick is not as wounded as many here presume. It sells in parts of the world where selling is in it's fundamental formative stages. There is NO GOOD REASON to off Buick.
I believe Pontiac to have a part in a very bright future over time. I just don't see it as a standalone store.
What this tells me is that Buick and Pontiac have had almost similar percentage declines...however Pontiac's decline is almost soley based on the G6 loosing 82% of it's volume. If they had a Grand Prix the numbers would be higher. I never thought I would see the Vibe be Pontiac's best selling car
Also, it shows me that the Enclave..which everyone points to as being the saving grace for Buick...gets outsold in the same showroom by the Acadia depite normally being within $1000 having similar equipment.
The Enclave to the Acadia is like the Escalade to the Tahoe. It's all about ROI.
Most kids love muscle cars. If GM played on that heritage, I think they would see some huge success. (Not build muscle cars for the kids, rather make Pontiac aspirational again in that sense)
Last edited by FUTURE_OF_GM; Feb 25, 2009 at 09:35 PM.
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I think they'd have an easier time doing something aspirational with Chevy or Cadillac. If they try with Pontiac, they're starting from a hole.