For sure....

 

By that same token...why by a Chevy when you can get the same thing in a Pontiac? By your logic, Chevy should have gained a **** ton of sales as Pontiac has been scaled back. This is again proof that GM does not gain by scaling back brands...it just gives up market share.

Pontiac used to be the most focused brand GM had. It sold exciting cars. Maybe not exciting in terms of performance...but definatly visually.

Though this commercial looks terribly cheesy today...it shows a pretty consise and focused message of what pontiac is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT0IIoYkJaM


It's the same reason people buy Mazda's instead of Ford's or a Altima instead of a Camry.

The thing to remember though is that the key to Pontiac is styling. What's funny, is if we go back to say 2000...even though the cars Pontiac offered were not great, and ridiculed for cladding...they sold damn well. Even if not fast...they looked fast. The magazines used a negative tone and called "boy racer" and "drawn in detention all"...but in reality, what is wrong with that. I remember the WS6 being ridiculed because it was so gnarish in the mags...yet you will NEVER find someone call that car ugly in person.

Pontiac is about to whither because GM replaced the volume Pontiac's with cars that were either boring (G6), or ugly (Grand Prix). As soon as the agression was gone so are the sales.

 

Would the average GMC buyer shun a high end Chevrolet model instead? Would a "Denali" version of the Silverado or Trailblazer not have been acceptable? I know the concept has been discussed before, however, has there even been real studies done on "how brand loyal" the GM buyer really is?

 

Wouldn't the sales loss of one GM brand mean a sales gain to another GM brand logic work only if the new car buyer's options are limited to only GM?

Let's be honest, up until a few years ago, GM's car lineup was blah at best. I wonder how much of the loss was due to the competitors having better product than GM at the time? There is no way you could sell me a G6 or previous version Malibu over a same year Accord.

 

That may be true, but I would speculate that at least half (if not more) of the money made off of GMC products comes directly from commercial applications. And if that is the case, then there is absolutely no reason why those vehicles cannot be badged as Chevrolets.

Again, you reduce the number of models being produced, reduce some infra-structure, re-route some of that saved cash to Pontiac. Get rid of the crap that is the Vibe, the torrent, the G5, and G6. What are you left with? The Solstice, the G8, and possibly.........some type of enthusiast car. Say....a new GTO or Firebird.

You market the Solstice as a "fun, weekend, getaway car". You market the G8 as a "BMW Killer", and you market the enthusiast car more towards Pontiacs roots.

Since Chevrolet doesn't have a vehicle like the Vibe and the Torrent, they might consider adding similar vehicles to their line up as there will be a market for these.

 

[QUOTE
Why does GM have to produce a Chevy Trailblazer, AND GMC Envoy? QUOTE]

As of Dec 23 the plant closed, both of these vehicles and the 9/7X are done. A mistake to cancel the Trailblazer since it sold on high volumes and had excellent name recognition.

 

Chevy still lists the Trailblazer as a 2009 model on their website.

 

They built 2009 Trailblazers up until Dec 23, they are now done.

 

If you always had say Grand Prix's (and a lot of people are like that)...now that it is cancelled, do you buy a LaCrosse or Impala?

Very unlikely.

On Club GP..I was always amazed how many Grand Prix owners either had Nissan's or traded a GP in for one.

 

The vehicle sold under no less than SIX different names during its 7 year run, and yes, all SIX existed at one time. (Trailblazer, Bravada, Rainier, 9-7x, Envoy, Ascender). Even Isuzu was dealing the GMT360 crack.

The answer is as simple as GM not paying acute attention to the needs of its customers in the Pontiac division. The question was awful simple too: What's the quickest way to bankruptcy?

 

The Oldsmobile debacle proved that GM customers would not necessarily move from one division to another. Some did, but not the majority.
That's why GM is hesitant to kill off brands. Plus, it costs millions of dollars to do so.

 

A lot of the Pontiac guys I know have moved to Mazda or Nissan. They use the same formula as Pontiac used to. A sport inspired car. I don't need my DD to be Vette fast. I just want something not as bland as your run of the mill Chevy, Yota, Ford. You guys can say what you want but Chevy can't be Pontiac nor should they.

 

I'm going to go a few steps out on the ledge and say Pontiac didn't even need to do as much as what most here propose, if even that. I don't feel Pontiac even needed more than 1 new additional all new model.

Consider a few things. Discounting the current credit crunch and the fear people have making big purchases when scared about being layed off: The G6 is already one of GM's best selling cars. Regardless as to how many went to fleets or not, the G6 sold. The G8 is conceeded as an exceptional car even to those who don't like US brand cars in the media. Solstice, while not exactly blazing the planet in sales, handily outsold the darling of this class of car... the formerly named Miata. The Vibe actually looks good, and sells well despite not fitting into the Pontiac "image". The G5 coupe, believe it or not, actually is selling very well for a single model coupe.

Pontiac is already GM's 2nd biggest car division. To drive home the excitement image, Pontiac simply needed to tweak the cars they already had and thrown in a new big coupe. Performance upgrades are cheaper than all new sheetmetal.

The G5 already looks debatably better than the Cobalt. Why doesn't this "excitement" Delta architecture coupe have the LNF engine the Cobalt has?

The G6 is NOT an ugly car. One highly regarded GM fellow that comes here recently views the G6 as a blank canvass... and he's absolutely right. It has great lines, but is very understated. You can do everything from stripes to ground effects without the car looking overdone. The Grand Am was highly successful by looking like a boy-racer. It wasn't for me, but it it sold well in excess of 200,000 cars annually. Like the G6, it's priced right. If you want to add some meat to it, GM already had turbocharged Espilons in it's global portfolio. The G6 already was the only NA-GM Espilon with a manual. If there was any car that had the potential to blow a hole in import sedan sales and image, the G6 "IS car"!

There are roughly as many Dodge dealers as there are Pontiac dealers. Both the G8 and the Dodge Charger are roughly the same size, and have the same engine lineup. Yet in December, Chrysler sold 5,414 Dodge Chargers while GM sold only 1,479 Pontiac G8s. Dodge also pushed 97,367 Chargers out the door next to GM's 15,002 G8s! Even discounting fleet and leese buyers of the Charger, that's still a sound flogging although the G8 is the better car...What gives?

IMO, GM needs to lose the hoodscoops on at the very least, the non-GT models. I'd even go so far as to limit the scoops to the GXP. Charger is going to alot of people who want a full sized car, that like the aggressive looks but not necessarily looking like they are ready to race at every turn. Also, the G8 is a great looking car in it's own right. I'd even go as far to say it's styling is better than any sedan GM makes outside of the CTS. It manages to look just as classy as what's coming out of both BMW these days. Although I personally dislike sedans, I feel this is a sedan that is GM's premier sports sedan. It should look like it instead of a boy racer. The sales are definately there as the Charger proves.

The Solstice has nothing wrong since there is a strong performance backing. Now that it has a coupe it's darn near perfect. THE perfect sports car IMHO.

Vibe is the best looking crossover thingy on the road, IMO. Sales are bearing this out.

The only new model Pontiac needs is a RWD 4 or 5 passenger coupe. Since a vehicle like that would be expensive to create, and we aren't exactly talking about 100K or even 50K per year sales volume, it would have to piggyback off of another vehicle. A Commodore based G8 would be ideal, but so would a reskinned low-to-no optioned Chevrolet Camaro. I wouldn't go the Firebird direction, but I would use the old Grand Prix coupes as the model.

The old Grand Prixs were extended wheelbase versions of the G-body, that had godawful powerful engine options, but focused on ride, style, and comfort as much as speed and performance. Sort of like the last GTO, but wrapped in a distinctively Pontiac body whose flash and style makes it fit into valet parking right nest to BMWs and Merceds Benz. A halo car that defines Pontiac, and what they are about.


Pontiac doesn't need a huge revision of it's lineup. It doesn't need a wholesale redesign or replacement of it's lineup. It's already a strong seller.

Pontiac outsold Buick last year by 2 to 1!

It simply makes no sense whatsoever that a company that will need to pay back taxpayers and private bondholders over 90 billion dollars, and typically makes no more than 4 billion in a good year in a good economy with 7 North American divisions operating at full capacity to jettison a division that sold 268,000 vehicles last year for a brand (Buick) that couldn't move as many cars combined (91,803) as Chrysler moved 10 year old PT Cruisers (99,585) or Chargers (97,367), and is barely 4k cars ahead of what Lincoln sold lsat year (87,828).

At 44,706 sold last year of 137,197, Buick's existence centers around the Enclave and the fact that it's big in China.

But even Pontiac's likely-to-be-killed G6s (140,240 sold last year) handily outsells everything under the Buick name combined.

Something I would certainly consider if I was on the hook for $90,000,000,000, and didn't want to take the next 50 years to pay it all back to become a profitable, net positive company again.

 

I dont think you're on the ledge at all. I just think the G8 ST, G8 Coupe and G8 Sportwagon should be brought over along with the Sedan. The development costs wouldnt be very large to get them over here, Holden would enjoy the extra volume, and having a fleet of nice RWD vehicles in showrooms would certainly have atleast a little street cred.

I wonder how much it cost GM to take the G8 ST around and into car shows versus how much more it would have cost to actually have it in them.

 

Is Pontiac profitable? That is all that really matters. Say half of the G6 sales become Malibu sales, does that help? Does 1/3 help? G6 sales dropped by 80%, most of that is thought to be fleet sales, which are low margin, if any deals.

Buicks should sell at a greater margin than Pontiacs, which should help the bottom line. I don't know if that will happen, but GM is betting on it.