guionM

Doug, that has to be the clearest view of the whole situation I've heard yet out of anybody. The point you made of Bob Lutz himself backtracking pretty much drove it home.

Bob Lutz is a vice chairman at General Motors! This kinda means that almost nothing short of God would have the power to make him deny a project that he is in the process of working on.

Again, it's pretty well known or relatively easy to find out what GM's thinking of doing with every other car or truck it makes over the next 3-4 years or so (with conditions), yet Camaro has a total gag order that doesn't carry as strictly with other models.

I think you nailed it on the head.

Joe K. 96 Zeee!!

Doug,

I hope you're right. You may have something and I think I see your point. If they cancelled it for purely business reasons then it seems to follow that they wouldn't have what seems to be unique "gag order" on saying anything about the Camaro.

We all know that the f-bods weren't selling fast enough to justify having the entire St. Therese plant devoted to just their production. What was it operating at? Something like 1/3 capacity? In addition the chassis was a 1 trick pony. Maybe when they did a cost benifit analysis they just found it would cost less to cancel and have a haitus then to keep the old f-bod in production.

Hmmm...Let's assume you figured it out. If they were required to Cancel the Camaro/Firebird then why use the word haitus?

I'm not up on lawyer speak or contracts, but I do know that wording is everything. Anyone here know anything about automotive production contracts????

poSSum

I agree that Doug is as close as we are going to get to the truth.

I'd also like to remind us that Red Planet aka the Fbodfather aka Scott has repeatedly instructed us to read "All Corvettes are Red" to get some insight into the workings of getting a product through the system ... and to the best of my knowledge they weren't dealing with any CAW / UAW issues on that one

RamAirBird2k2

It also may not be just the CAW it may be the city/provincial government............... Why you may ask, When a plant is moved to a particular city, the government will often offer incentives in the form of tax abatements/reductions, low interest loans,etc. Often the term is 10 yrs and penalties can and will be assessed for failure to reach certain goals by a specified time, and also, for moving the product that is made at that facility to another facility. Maybe GM's silence has to do with not wanting to pay penalties to the govenment of that providence. Since the 10 yr term would be up in 03..........................

Doug Harden

It is starting to all add up.....isn't it?

I wonder what the chances of finding out how much of the incentive angle is true?

1992 St. Therese newspapers are long gone and probably not available on-line...

Or maybe we might oughta' "let a sleeping dog lie" here ...no telling who reads these forums..... Maybe we oughta' lay of the door pounding for a while (sounds like less than a year though)......

RamAirBird2k2

Here's the local paper (hope you can read french) St Therese

DaxsZ28

These points are why I started this thread. I've never talked to anyone high up at GM personally, but it seems they like to talk all about future products, but as soon as the word 'Camaro' or 'Firebird' come up, they all just shut up. It seems you can almost read their emotions in some of the interviews I've read. Why would this be? I can't for the world figure out why they would want to lead us on, unless they are leading us toward something. All this reading between the lines can drive you crazy, but I guess right now that's all we got.

Scott seems like a pretty straight-up guy. I just don't believe he would lead us along without good reason. I'm sure he, along with many others even higher up the totem pole than he, are somewhat job scared when it comes to even hinting at the Camaro. You know how frustrating it is to us, just imagine how it is to him!

One other thing, when the 4th gen came out, don't you figure they were building some of the first cars about this time 10 years ago? If I remember correctly, the very first cars hit showrooms sometime in March, 1993. I bought mine in April. So maybe if it is a 10 year deal, the deadline is quickly approaching. Maybe even by the time of the Detroit Auto Show!

95 Z/28 LT1

This is something I dug up from the CAW website. It's dated 1998 I believe. Probably not much worth mentioning here but I thought I would share.

94GreenZ28

Well I remember hearing that there were going to be a lot of surprises at Detroit this year. We could only hope that one of them was a Camaro.

RamAirBird2k2

I don't think we'll see a Camaro at Detroit, because I believe GM is using the GTO as a "test" to judge the market for a car like the Camaro, if the GTO sells like hotcakes, it probably will prove to the bean counters there is a market for a RWD 2+2 V8 performance car. The theories put forth in this thread makes me wonder if the GTO was supposed to be called Trans Am, but because of whatever reason they called it GTO


EDIT: My gut feeling after talking with some friends in the auto industry(we made brake parts for the LT1 Camaros),and this is pure speculation on my part, is that the Camaro will be reintroduced in time for its 40th anniversary, depending on the way the market recieves the GTO

IZ28

Nah, they know theres a market. They see what the M*****g is doing and how performance is getting to be more and more of a must.

Doug Harden

......That article sure points out how ready to fight they were & are !

I'd "tread softly" too, if I were GM.......

Darth Xed

Let me apply something I think I remember hearing about our local GM plant's (Lordstown, Cavalier/Sunfire) on the TV....

I believe when the contract was renewed a few years back (Before Lordstown was granted the new Delta car for 05), that Lordstown was given exclusive rights to build Cavaliers for sale in either 1) The U.S. or 2) All of North America. (There is, or at least was, another J-car plant in Mexico...)

SO.... If this is true, I guess there is an example of something close to what were have never been able to confirm about St. Therese...

poSSum

I threw a feeler into the region on this overall topic and the reply I got was that the St. Therese workers believe the CAW sold them down the river to preserve southern Ontario jobs.

I don't doubt for a moment that GM's intent to close St. Therese was a, if not the, major factor in the Camaro/Firebird hiatus.

I don't envision really affordable RWD performance from GM any time soon. We will see lots of premium RWD performance.

GM has made it pretty clear that the affordable performance market they are targetting is the FWD "ricer" for lack of a better word, market.

I know the "Ford sells a lot of Mustangs so the affordable RWD sector is viable" argument comes up regularly, and I agree to a point. However, as Scott has pointed out, GM has a significant product line in the coupe market, something that Ford doesn't have. Realistically, how many women (yes I know I'm stereotyping, sorry) do you know that would buy a V6 Camaro or Firebird instead of a Grand AM or Alero coupe?

Sorry for rambling

IZ28

Lots of them buy M*****gs. The corporate excuses and BS are exactly that to me. The car can appeal to every1 just the way it used to and be a 100,000-200,000 seller again if done right. This is where a mid model helps alot.