Stewie

Oh what the heck I'll beat this horse one more time. When has chevy had another car that has matched the base vette hp? Closest time was in 1990 or 91 when the camaro was rated at 245 and the vette was 245 or 250 depending on what sources you read.

About the cars you mentioned

Corvette 400hp/400tq
GTO 400/400 not chevrolet
CTSv 400/395 not chevrolet
STSv 440/430 not chevrolet
Trailblazer SS 395/400 not a car

Knowing car enthusiasts are in the minority, joe average who is in the market for a performance car is going to look a hp #'s first. Joe sees a base vette with 400hp for 45k then he sees the top pony car from gm in the same show room for 33k (also with 400hp). He's going to have a hard time justifying to himself paying a extra 12k for 2 fewer seats. "But it's a corvette!" Corvette is a big name, but I don't think a majority of buyers think it's worth more than 12k. Part of having a corvette is the status of owning the top car in chevrolet (hp included). Having a Z06 available doesn't change this.

With that said I imagine we will see more of the same drivetrain wise in the 5th gen, a V6 and a V8. I also think that the top performer will out perform a Mustang GT (plus all of its bolt-on special editions) but not a GT500

Pandamonkey

I can't see the F5 having less power than the current GTO.
I beleive it will have the identical drivetrain for 07.

With the Z06 being released now, it's not difficult to think that it may see 525-550hp by 07 production.
The base Corvette has been behind by roughly 50hp in the past and I think that will continue through, for a number of 475-500hp.

Leaving plenty of room for the base V8 Camaro to have 425 horse, with a upscaled model (be it the Z28 or SS) to have the traditional 25hp extra, coming out at 450 horse.

I'm thinking it will be a base Z28 with the upscale SS, although I wouldn't be unhappy if it went the other way - just can't see it due to GM putting the SS badge on the performance models as of late.

Also the GTO would follow suit with the base model and the upscale Judge.

These are all just meandering thoughts - no evidence or proof to back anything up.

RoMaD

I'm surprised that Guy didn't mention it, but I know he had a lot of points to make. Anyway, someone of some importance mentioned a long while ago that the base Corvette's numbers would not be safe. Meaning, the old rule that the (base) Vette was top dog, is now out the window. The rule now is, nothing will be above the (ssshhh) Blue Devil.

This would thereby make this entire topic a moot point. I would entirely expect an F5 to come in at least 400HP as the upscale model. With the possiblity there for a higher rating in a more limited-run model. Like someone else said, expect an F5 with a base Vette motor for starters. That's what I would be banking on.

RussStang

I am pretty much the opposite of you. I love the 4th gens, and would never consider buying a third gen. I don't like their style, especially the Camaro's, and I think interiors are worse than the 4th gen, they definelty rattle a hell of alot more, and they don't perform that well. I never liked how you could get a top dog IROC-Z, which only came with the automatic, and match it up to a much cheaper 5-speed notchback Foxbody LX, and you would have a race on your hands. Doesn't make much sense to me. I don't mind a base v8, but the 305 was a terrible engine, and for any enthusiast who can't afford the top car, they will be turned off with another boat anchor like that (although I don't see that happening, as GM doesn't have any engine in it's portfolio at the moment designed like a 305.)

Also, I am pretty sure the first years of the 4th gen didn't sell as low as you suggest. You bring up sales just in this millenium, but you do know the car was on sale another 7 years in the previous millenium too, right? Early on they actually sold pretty well. Maybe the fact the car was forgotten about by GM and never had any advertising towards the end might have had something to do with the demise of the car as well. I hear the GTOs didn't sell well initially either. Doesn't make it a bad car, just too many things went wrong on its introduction. I don't know where you come up with your fact for the 4th gens only selling to a hardcore audience either. What was the average age of the 4th gen buyer, late 30 something? Seems like a perfect midlife crisis age to me. I see tons of girls still driving v6s around here too, as well a few in the z28s. Most of the hardcore performance guys I know didn't have anything to do with the initial sales figures, most of the fbodies they bought were used and a few years older. I agree the 5th gen needs to correct on many of the mistakes of the past if it wants to sell, but the 4th gen witch hunt that goes on around here is just absurd to me. Even if the 30,000 people who bought the car in the end only bought it for performance, if GM doesn't bring a car out that will perform (which they will), you have just kissed 30,000 sales goodbye, which to me would be worth considering.

FutureZMan

The syling was always appealing to me, interior? well i had a few buddys through the years with modern stangs 1996-200? and let me tell you. There interior Ques IMO had nothing on a 98+ SS and for sure nothing on a Trans AM. Also to say a 1998-2004 Mustand looked better then a WS6... I dunno about that. The seating in a mustang, made me feal like i was being punished, very upright with little bolster support, unorgiving sport seats to say the least.

Ill say this again, mustang outsold on three fronts. Exterior styling, Teeny bopper wow factor (Girls loved there stylings and guys loved being looked at..) and nestalgia.

Things that the mustang couldnt have been sold on: Engine options, 1/4 times, Interior Ques. Because all three where appauling.

I do beleive the New camaro needs engines options, but 3 is enough.

If GM decided to put a 295HP making 5.3 in the F5 (which would be the equveliant of the 305 in the 80's) I think it would receive more frowns then smiles. I look at the days of the 305 days in the Z28 (1980's not the 60's-70's) as dark times, when quick cheap optioned camaros roamed the streets. Camaro really is a name plate for a certain set of people and looking at this websits member numbers, i think GM has more then enough eager enthusiasts who will leap on the 07' if it delivers where expected.

IMO this would be the best formula as stated before.

Camaro: 250HP V6
Camaro Z28: 400-425HP LS2
Camaro SS: 450 ???

there is no reason to have different ltr sized motors in the same base V8 models. The simpler the equastion the more profit GM can make.

RussStang

In regard to the Camaro meeting or surpassing the hp level in the base c6 as many of you have suggested...
I don't know what GM plans to do in the future, but there is no known historical evidence even in present time where a Chevy car has risen in hp to match or surpass the Corvette's power level (except maybe the 454 LS-6 Chevelle, I am not sure on what it put out). There are certainly other cars in GM's portfolio that do, but none of them where a Chevy badge. We will all have to wait and see what GM does with the new Camaro, but history does show us a patern here.

FutureZMan

There will Not be a 2007 Camaro carrying the same HP rating as the vette, im sorry but there base model vette will not be challanged on paper by a 13,000 less CamaroZ28, there would be no way to justify in the ways of HP of spending 40,000 on a 400HP vette over a 400HP 28,000 Camaro Z28. I love the corvette name plate, but its not worth 12,000 to me. I'm beyond positive i would get 80% of people to agree.

And to your arguement about the other 400HP contenders out there.

GTO - Ponitac, and performance wise isnt in the same class as the vette.
CTSv- Cadillac, and is set more at the BMW's and other Euro Touring cars, aslo isnt in the same performance bracket as the Vette.
STSv- Cadillac, same as CTSv.
SSR- is a 15second truck, meant for nestalgia and retro enthusiasts. Shouldnt even be in the comparison.
Trailblazer SS- How did this even get in the comparison.

was the 305 the only one optioned for the 5-speed? I remember hearing something like that, and if thats the case. it was a bad call on GM's part, should have been option available with the 350~ models.

FutureZMan

Agreed 100%, i kinda just said the same thing before reading your post .

In regaurds to the last comment, i beleive the Z28 should be able to mop up the GT and its bolt on versions this shouldnt change not one ounce, thats the intire reason for the camaros creation, 5th gen isnt the time to change this. Make the SS more of a contender, aim it at the enevitable cobra and the GT500. GM needs to distinguish the name plates, allow the SS to become a stipper road racer aimed at the higher end stangs, and let the Z06 of 07 to be approaching 600HP for everything else. Because in all reality, thats what they are.. the SS is a road machine, and the vette has established itself as a luxury standard road race machine, allow them to be what they are. GM needs to seriously not trip on HP this round, re-establish itself as the king of road ready machines.

Only time will tell.

FutureZMan

I hope your right, because right now the standard vette is at a 105 disadvantage to its Z06 counterpart, and if the rumors are true that could move to a 150 Gap by time of release. The vette would need to see some major boosts in the next two model years to keep the flow of things in the direction of a 400-425 Base Z28.

Stewie

The manual trans for the late 3rd gen (borg warner t5) couldn't handle the l98 well enough to warranty it from the factory.

The only way we're going to see a camaro with as much or more hp than a base corvette is it's going to cost the same as a corvette. Who wants a 45k GT500 contender? Hypothetically if a camaro were available now the top model would come with a "detuned" ls2 (not more than 395hp).

And from the business side of things, how much money would it make GM to produce a high dollar pony car? Did the 2003+ cobra help generate any more sales to the other versions? Would producing a corvette competitor within the same brand help camaro more than it hurts corvette?

blackrat

With regards to the whole Stang, F-bod looks thing, I have one good example. I visited my friend in San DIego after I first got my car. We pull up at an In and Out right behind a 96+ GT vert with two guys and two girls in it. The girls couldn't care less about my car but the dude driving could not stop looking back, for whatever reason. When they left, my friend (he doesn't even own a car, much less know anything about them) commented that his car looks like a fun fast, but mine looks like a scary fast.

Thats when I got it. The only girls that I know that like my car (styling-wise and performance-wise) are somewhat tomboyish and aren't really girly girl.

The girly girls keep telling me to slow down

FutureZMan

that is damn near my identical experiance with Camaro to mustang exterior stylings.

Guys drool at a nice Camaro SS / Z28. Girls shrug, its all about the looks for the majority of them.

only time i Ever got a compliment on any of my Z's design ques was by a girl in a 7-11 parking lot summer of 2001, and she was actually hot

The reason most guys when i was growing up gave for driving the mustangs they owned was "They are still kinda quick, but man they attact mad women", the budys i had that could get laid without a car usually drove camaros or trucks. Sad but true, alot of the stangs sold in my experiance which was plenty big enough, with guys my age was for ***-factor, unless it was a tuner fox box.

bossco

390hp/390 ft/lbs. (Cobra) is appalling?
300hp/320 ft/lbs. (Mach) is appalling?
260hp/300 ft/lbs. (GT) is appalling?

FutureZMan

Im speaking of while the Camaro was still in production Vs a Camaro's HP.

2002 Camaro Lineup

Camaro base: 200HP Base price: $17,800
Camaro Z28: 310HP Base price $25,875
Camaro SS: 345HP Base Price: $29,200 +2,500 for 35th anniversery 350HP model.

2002 Mustang Lineup

Mustang Base:190HP Base Price:$17,305
Mustang GT:260HP Base Price:$23,965
Mustang Cobra:320HP (2001, because ford pulled the line in 02' because they couldnt make there advertised HP numbers...)Base Price:$34,000

I dont count the blown 2003 Cobra as it was outside of the F-bodys production life time, as was the Mach 1.

Year for Year in the life of F4, there was no comparison price per performance.

So yes with the much higher performing F4 in the same price category with much better out of factory performance, the Mustangs options where appalling.

In todays market, mustang is pony car king... By default what a way to claim the crown.

CLEAN

1996. Camaro SS had more hp than base Corvette. And I believe Firehawks had more power than the base Vette every year they were available until 1997.



True, but what Chevrolet car is available to put the LS2 into if Chevrolet had wanted to? Exactly

Joe Public doesn't buy Corvettes. Joe public doesn't wander into Chevrolet showrooms and choose Camaro over a CORVETTE based on sticker prices. If you want bang for the buck, you buy a Camaro. If you want a Corvette, you buy a Corvette.