So again, it will be a pony car contender. The market is divided into segments. Cars contend in the segments. When you start contending outside of your segment, things go real wrong.

 

I just dont see a need for the Camaro to merge towards the high end HP levels of Vette, the SRT-whatever gang, and the SUPER low volume cars from Ford that might only be around for a model year or 3 anyways.

I bet we get a Mustang competitor. And thats fine.

Even if the Vette has 425hp base LS2 by 07-08 I dont tihnk we'll get a 405hp base V8. Maybe 345... 405 might be a good Z/28 number.

 

Exactly.

The top notch mustangs should be the Z28 competition IMHO. The way ive always seen the Camaro Z28 (I'm only 26) was a knock out bang for buck, a 26k Z28 could easily hang with / Beat a 30+ Cobra and on occasion Vette. I hope this doesnt change in F5's reign.

 

I imagine we'll see what we've always seen. But I think we'll have a base V8 to ding the GT, and an uplevel V8, LS2, LS7-haha...I wish, or whatever LSx they have at the time To run with the Shelby. Hp for Hp, the Camaro will never run with a vette of similar power, so I don't know that thats a problem. I don't see Vette owners crying over the 400 hp GTO. If the Shelby is at 450hp, I'm not sure what hp the Camaro would need to compete. Certainly it should have a weight and aerodynamic advantage, but I don't know how much power it could afford to give up. 430hp seems safe enough a guess to run with a Shelby. If they can't make up 30hp by then in efficiency improvements, they can just bore it to 6.2-6.3L.

 

In the past i seen the charger as a pony car, and a 350HP output probally wont do much to a 425HP output even if it will be a few hundred pounds heavier then the Z28, with 2 added doors.

The Z28 realistically will probally re-emerge at a 30,000 price point, or pretty close to it. This puts it in the chargers price range full loaded.

Again, things have changed since the disappearance of the Camaro in 2002, i hope GM adjusts.

I personally WONT be happy with a 13.5 stock Z28, not after all thats happened. 2002 SS's run 12.9-12.8 at the local track. Not consistantly, but regularly. I just dont want anymore leaps in reverse. 13.1-12.8 stock and ill be happy.

 

Multiple engine choices in bore on a Z28 reminds me ALOT of the 3rd Gen, 305 and 350.. I certainly hope we dont travel that road again.

I hope personally they go with a LS2 for the Z28. Maybe a tuner LS2 for the SS, or maybe a variant of the LSx series.

Key numbers IMO:

Camaro Z28: 395HP 410RWTQ
Camaro SS: 430HP 455RWTQ

I would be one happy camper, and for sure broke as hell for the next 6 years lol.

 

One thing to remember fellas... if Chevy puts Camaro on a car, it WILL perform like it should. It did for a long time before its hiatus.

Dont doubt the Bowtie. You have no reason to.

Since Camaro hit the fan and took a deep sleep...
The base pickup V8 has 285hp
Monte Carlo now has 303hp
Impala has 303hp
SSR has ~395 hp
Corvette has 505hp
A pickup truck can be had with 650lbs of tq now

Why fear GM will let loose a pansy Camaro??

 

I have never, even once had any horsepower concerns for the next Camaro.

You guys know what it is that concerns me.............

 

I started doubting GM's competantcy when the pulled the plug on the best camaro they had ever created..

I trust GM's vision in every department thats NOT the camaro's name plate.

call me over protective, but they are the ones who instilled this in me, by pulling the plug on an amazing product line on a price for performance standpoint.

and the past has shown the camaros numbers will not surpass the vettes, and with a 2007 hopeful launch date, im just doing the math is all.

 

The revived LX cars (425hp) also weigh 4000-4200 lbs.

 

Your infatuation with the independent rear and disdain for the the live axle???

 

I think he's referring to weight and size.

 

I disagree. A 350HP C5 sure as hell didn't hand a 325HP (stock rating) Camaro it's ***. It's almost always a drivers race.

With that said, there's no reason to doubt that a 400HP Camaro and a 400HP Vette would be a drivers race either.

The Vettes IRS eats up more HP, and a Camaro weighs a bit more.

 

Ah, so many points you make, and so little time.

What HP are you expecting? Horsepower figures for ALL cars are climbing. That 340 hp or so the 4th gen was making will be made by smaller V8s in a matter of months.

Seems Camaro was doing this perfectly well for 35 years.

If you are even mentioning a Viper in the same breath as a Camaro, you need to take a sedative.

It's easy. Follow the money:
Ford GT-$130,000
Shelby GT500-$40,000
Mustang GT-$25,000

Not complicated at all.



Probally that Corvette will go far beyond 400HP in the near future, I'd say.

GM is going to compete with the Mustang with a low build, Corvette priced car? Riiiight!

Still mentioning Viper and Camaro in the same sentence I see?


Top performance NEVER was the measure of a "true contender". Remember, the old SN95 Mustang handed the 4th gen Camaro it's a**, despite not being quicker or faster. A true contender is a vehicle that offers a better total package than it's competitor.

BTW: GTs are a little quicker than 15 seconds.



A stock LT1 will not outaccelerate a 2005 Mustang GT.....period!


I can always tell the younger guys. Their the ones who think Camaros were always the quickest things on the street.

Too bad you missed the 80s.
...or the 70s for that matter.


Charger was never a Pony car, unless you are talking about that FWD Omini based car of the early 80s.



Exactly!

You have more misconceptions about Camaro's demise than I can count.
I wrote a story on this very subject last year for Popular Hot Rodding. You might want to read it.

Just because a car is quick and can handle doesn't mean it's not a failure. GM (and some people in particular) did everything but perform witchcraft to keep the F-bodies going.

The only real story about GM killing the Camaro & Firebird is that they managed to keep it around till 2002!

 

Guion, I think you are misunderstand about what he is implying with his Viper example. The bar is set alot lower over in the Chevy camp, due to the base vette's 400hp. Should a competitor come out like the GT500, Dodge would have no problem releasing a car competitive with it in HP levels due to their flagship still being out of harms way. The same can't be said of the Camaro, as it hits its HP glass ceiling much quicker. Of course a Viper and Camaro can't be fairly compared, it would be a ridiculous comparison to say the least.


Although I agree with what you are saying for the most parts, there are a few points I would like to address in your post. First off, top performance may not be that important in the v6 or base v8 car, as they will be the volume sellers, and will due most of that more than likely off their style. This is easily seen in the fact that you stated, that the sn95 simply destroyed the 4th gen in sales. However, the top dog pony car draws in a different audience. An audience that is willing to pay top dollar for performance, and wants their cars to perform the best. Look at how many 03 or 04 cobras sold in comparison to previous years. That should speak volumes. I am not so worried about the performance of the base v8 5th gen Camaros, as I am sure it will be great. I ponder just what will be done with the top dog to keep it competitive.

One more point worth noting, is that, as you stated, the Camaro has not always been a top performer, but as of recently it has been, and has sold to many people on that fact. The "younger guys" like myself, this thread starter, and many others on the board, grew up with an angry, reasonably price, very high performing car, and that is what many of us perceive it as. Since the target of most car manufacturers seems to be younger buyers, I think it is important to give the style that will draw in the v6 buyers, but the performance that many of the younger guys have come to known.