Yeah, that dawned on me after I sent the message. DOH!! <slapping myself in the forehead>. But still, GM has many stablemates. Mostly trucks, but stablemates nonetheless.
My point was trying to show that the Firebird was not a clone, but a sister to the Camaro. To me, a clone would be the Plymouth Neon. That car was no different than the Dodge. What was the point of that? Not even a different grille. Not even a different model name. THAT was a clone. The Firebird and Camaro shared little of their outer skins, a percentage of their interiors (3rd gens notwithstanding), and none of their personalities. I think their demographics were a bit different, too. I'm sure there was some overlap, but I believe the Camaro appealed to a different group then the Firebird did.

We realize that GM has a lot of product overlap. But these guys at GM are supposed to be the best. Isn't there a way that they can keep the Firebird as it should be (smallish, V-8 powered RWD 2+2 coupe) while not stepping on the toes of the Camaro and GTO? GM needs to find a way.

And if they can't, then they should just let the namplates die with honor. That's all we're saying.

 

You convinced me that clone is most certainly the wrong word. You can't put up a stronger example than the Dodge & Plymouth Neon.

As far as Camaro & Firebird appealing top different groups, I'm pretty sure Trans Am and Firehawk buyers were different than Z28 & SS buyers. Buy I'm not quite convinced that Formula buyers were all that different than Z28's and that differences in the base Firebird & Camaro demographics were all that different. I can find out for sure later & post them. Should be interesting.

 

To satisfy the Firebird owners maybe the SS could be more Firebird-like in the luxury department. That would also open up more options, bumpers, taillights, and whatever. They are too much of the same cars now to make 2. I honestly don't like that same car different look thing. Since the Third Gen they've been really close and maybe even closer in some ways in the 4th. Still, I'm not sure if it woud have been the same without the Firebird and I'm not sure if I'd like to see Firebird used on something that it completely doesn't belong on, even though we know what Pontiac originally wanted it to be and not a modded Camaro. GM better be careful with this issue.

 

It would be two door, AWD...and GM is, or already has, developed a HF 3.6 turbo. Power is in the 320 -360 horse range with plenty left for hottrodders.

The decal would read.....TURBO T/A 3.6

It would cost more than a Camaro...but would be a different car, appealling to different enthusiasts.

 

Hey I guess there is some history behind this...'89 3.8 Turbo T/A anyone?

 

The G6 "coupe" will not be a true coupe. It is slated to have those goofy little rear door-lets, like the Saturn Ion.
So it's not a two door.
T/As are not supposed to be AWD, just RWD.

And while the 3.8 turbo T/A from '89 was pretty cool, I don't think it will ever go down as the ultimate T/A.
When people think T/A, they think V-8.

The most popular T/As are probably the 70-73 models, especially the SD455 cars. All of those cars had V-8s, RWD, and only 2 doors.

 

Something else I just thought of: Just about everyone who makes a case about the sales numbers between the Firebird and Camaro always say the Camaro sold roughly around 70k and the Firebird sold 30K ( just using #'s stated above for reference). Also, they say how if the Firebird wasn't offered, the Camaro would sell to the 100k mark and hit at least a good perecentage of the sales GM is looking for.

But let me ask this: If the Firebird Trim/Model is usually more expensive compared to the same Camaro Trim/Model, wouldn't this make GM more money? Because if the combined sales hit around 100K and all GM is looking for is 100K sales in Camaro, then wouldn't having both be the same in terms of sales numbers, but actually make more money for GM because Firebird is more expensive? That's how I take it as. If they are the "same" car besides sheet metal, then the Firebird makes a bit more money than Camaro.

Anyone else want to chime in on this??

 

Well my guess is that at the small volume they sell the Firebird...the tooling and engineering would cost more than the extra money made.

 

But what tooling is really necessary? Other than sheet metal, hood, front end and some interior pieces, everything is basically the same right? I'm just trying to understand how if the Firebird's MSRP is above that of the same level Camaro, how it doesn't make money? I would say it's a wash at least, and having both models available gets GM the number of sales needed.

 

True. I'd say just retire it if it isn't gonig to get the true recognition it deserves.

I don't have a problem with the G6 or solistice since both look to be excellent performers, but i do have a problem with them being badged "firebirds". They are not "firebirds". guionM brought up the interesting point (didn't know about it) of the "firebirds" original intentions being a Dohc light-weight 2 seater....The original intentions mean very little today (35-40 years later). Do you throw 40 good years out of the window and start fresh? Any future firebird should stay true to it's roots or what firebird has historically meant for the last 35 years. If not, let the name rest in peace.

A better name for the solstice would be sunfire. It'd more fitting than firebird since it's a roadster (hence the sun with the top down).

 

Exactly. It should be fairly identical to the camaro say for a few cosmetic pieces. I see a 5th gen firebird as more feasible than the other upcoming Pontiac coupes. The good majority of engineering is shared with the camaro, so how hard of a task can it be?

And assuming the firebird sells at half of the camaro's proposed 100k...how would it compare to G6, solstice, or GTO sales? The GTO is limited to 18k units, imported, and is expensive; the solstice is a 2 seater which is even less practical; and the G6 will most likely sell in low volumes as well. I doubt any of them would touch 50+k units. 2 of them are all new platforms and have no direct (known atleast) "stablemate/sister car", so they'd require more of their own tooling, line, etc... (i'm just assuming). How are these cars any more profitable than a firebird (which shares most parts with camaro) selling at 50k units a year? How can these cars have a strong business case and not the firebird? I like the GTO, G6, and solstice, but i'd much rather see a 5th gen firebird than either G6 or solstice.

 

That's not true RE5.0. Pontiac has big plans for the G6. I think that they're projecting well over 100,000 units annually. It's Epsilon architecture is shared with the Malibu, Saturn, SAAB and Opel....and more to come. This will be a very high volume platform to say the least.....with lots of flexibility. If we're strictly talking profitability...an Epsilon based Firebird could potentially be very profitable...the other 300,000 or 400,000 Epsilons would absorb the niche player Firebirds' engineering and tooling costs easily. All of it's chassis, powertrain and assembly plant costs are already covered.

 

Wow it took me a long time to read through those seven pages.

I would just like to say I agree that the solstice or the G6 should not be called a firebird. It just doesn't 'Ring True'. I know what the 'bird was going to be some 40 years ago, but it didn't happen. Regardless of sales figures.
For 99% of the people out there the name Firebird brings a lot of preconceptions along with it (styling, engines, body size). Putting that name on the Solstice would just bring a lot of confusion to the public at large.

I'd just leave the same Solstice or even call it a Fiero or sunfire(it may bring baggage, but so would Firebird). At least it is more along the same theme.
If there is to be a 5th gen 'bird, it should stick to its herritage just like the camaro, unless you would prefer a 2 seater 4cylinder camaro? Or how about a 4 door 6 cylinder sedan named Corvette? No? I didn't think so

 

Exactly. I'm not sure how G6 entered this discussion. If Sunfire dies as expected and the Solstice is built, G6 will be Pontiac's volume car, as it is the replacement for the Grand Am. In fact, the high performance version of the G6 will be a small piece of the pie...so it has no bearing on "Firebird" as we knew it.

 

The reason to not make a Firebird, is that Pontiac is going to have the GTO, G6 with the GXP performance option, and the Grand Prix GTP (or is that going to move to a GXP also?). That's 3 levels of trim for performance, in GM's performance division. Pricing on those 3, I'm guessing, is already going to be similar. If they add a 4th car to the mix that is similar to those 3, they're just competeing with themselves.

The Solstice would be the 4th performance variant, but it's pricing supposedly will be much cheaper, and it will be a two seater, differentiating it from the others.

Personally, I'd love to see a new Firebird. What f-body lover wouldn't? But I also can see why it shouldn't happen with the current planned Pontiac lineup.