You keep saying that bringing back the Firebird when the GTO is around is pointless... because why bring back a Firebird as a Camaro/GTO clone...

Camaro needs to be so totally different from GTO, even if it shares a general platform, that is isn't even funny... so I don't see how Firebird would be a "GTO clone" either...


It's kind of like saying the upcoming Cadillac STS is a total waste because it shares the Sigma architecture with CTS... and I certainly don't think anyone could make much of a case for that...

 

No...the GTO and Camaro will be different. But instead of having say the Camaro and Firebird being nearly identical fighting on the same market...I think the plan is to have the Camaro kinda be an entry level performance four seater that can be equiped pretty well up to around $35,000...but is smaller than a GTO and poney car at heart. For people who want more options, or status than a Camaro can offer there will be the GTO....which starts at about $35,000. It has to offer more status and options because it is Pontiac's halo car. The whole genius of this setup is that GM is saving money by having them share the same rough platform...but has them aimed at different markets. I think the GTO will be aimed more at people who want and can afford a Corvette...but need 4 seats...where the Camaro is more a Mustang competitor. A Firebird based off the Camaro would just cause brand overlap, which GM wants to eliminate.

I know people don't want a Camaro to be a watered down GTO...and though the Camaro will look different than the GTO and be smaller...the reality of the situation is that a Camaro has to cost near $20,000 in V6 form...and it's buyers will scream bloody murder if it cost more tha the equivelent of $35,000 today. The GTO on the otherhand...people expect to start at around $35,000, and GM probaly could sell a limited run of LS6 powered cars for up to $45,000 no problem. That is why the GTO will always have to have a bit more content then the Camaro.

 

In addition to all that, if Pontiac had the GTO as the halo car, which it will, and has the firebird below it, then the GTO will have to be faster and perform better. So you will then have to have a Firebird that is slower than the GTO but at the same time, there will be a Camaro over at Chevy that will be faster than a GTO, soooooooooo you will then have a Firebird that will be slower than a Camaro and that will pss off a lot of people too. With that said, the Firebird will be competing in a different market anyway due to it's performance disadvantage over the GTO and the Camaro and watching the price overlap with the GTO too. So it seems to me, you can either have the Firebird as a discount Camaro that doesn't go all out like a top model Camaro, or have a totally different formula than the GTO or Camaro.

With that being said, I still would like to see a Firebird along side the Camaro with it's distictive style but I really don't see a case for the GTO and the Firebird, they are just too close to one another.

 

I generally agree with everything you guys are saying here... but it still doesn't explain why a GTO and a Firebird could not co-exist...

Your best arguement so far is 'product overlap' with Camaro & Firebird, but they co-existed for 35 years...

And, I don't buy totally into the GM elimionating product overlap anyway... Trailblazer/Envoy/Rainer... basically the same... Equinox/VUE... basically the same.... Chevy trucks and GMC... basically the same... I know those are all trucks and have a bigger market, but you get the idea.

Maybe my Z28 to SS differentiation idea of AWD could be applied to differentiate Firebird and Camaro rather than Z28 and SS

 

I don't think they would be too close to each other (GTO and Firebird), really... GTO is a more family-style oriented fast coupe , with RWD, while Firebird is an affordable sports car... I think there is a huge difference.

Remember that Monte Carlo and Camaro both co-existed all the way through the 80's as RWD coupes in the same showroom...

I would not think that a 1987 IROC-Z and 1987 Monte Carlo SS were stealing too many of each other sales back then... the cars fill different places in the market.

 

Brand overlap you say? What happens when a STS-V, DTS-V exist? How bout' the CTS-V? Although different in size, they all have 4 doors, and a similar powerplant. They'll even all share the same chassis. GM has overlap in so many of it's brands it isn't even funny. Look at Chevy trucks/GMC for an example.

A Firebird can co-exist next to a Camaro. What happens when those "20 somethings" that you described want a rwd v8 car, but find the GTO too f'n expensive, and a Soltice not their style? A G6 Coupe? Nope, that'll be fwd w/ a v6, and probaby sloted below a Soltice. There has to be a medium. A Firebird can fill that slot. Besides, the GTO's target should be REALLY high end sport cars, like the Maseratis, Mercedes coupes, Porsches; with similar performance to the Vette, at a fraction of the cost.

Finally, Soltice is a copyrighted name, by none other than GM.



Date Filed/Country
2001-12-24/US
2002-01-08/CA

SOLSTICE

Copyrighted Car Names

 

This quote is from Red Planet from a few months back. It fits perfectly in this one.

 

I just don’t see why we cant have a Camaro clone Firebird/TA like the 3rd and 4th gens with a Solstice sitting next to it on the Pontiac Lot. That would be badass in my opinion. I really don’t see why having interchangeable Camaro’s and Firebird’s would be such a bad thing. Was it really all that bad for the past 20 something years? I never really heard anyone bitch too much about it. In my eyes it gave more options for the same car line. Options turn into sales. I’m personally not a Firebird guy. I just don’t like the styling. But I love the simple straight forward look of a Camaro. So if the F-body only had the Firebirds styling running around without a Camaro that’s one less sale for GM.

How cool would it be to see a GTO, Firebird and solstice all next to each other in the Pontiac showroom. Talk about Fuel for the soul. I say build the 5th gen Camaro, wait a year release a clone Firebird Trans Am with a more upscale option list and it own unique styling and leave the Solstice alone on it own mission. Just don’t call the Solstice a Firebird. Call the Solstice a Solstice.

And when talking about performance and price range between Chevy and Pontiac I see easily how all that can be worked out.

Corvette C6 $50,000 to $60,000 range running low 12s maybe high 11s with next Z06
2005+ GTO $35,000 to $45,000 range running mid to high 12s.
5th Gen Camaro low $20,000 to mid $30,000 range running high 12s.
5th Gen Firebird mid $20,000 to high $30,000 range running high 12s.
Solstice in the low to mid $20,000 with a killer turbo motor running mid 13’s.

Ok with this set up no ones toes are stepped on. There is an option for everyone. There is performance for everyone. I’m sure business cases could be found for these plans. Why cant this work? In my perfect world this is how I would see GM’s sports car world in the next decade.

 

Well if the 2 do co-exist, then you will have a GTO that will be no slower than the Firebird, yes? That seems like it will be true so then you have a slower Firebird. Now the GTO is a little bigger and more luxurious but not by a huge margin so the question is, what is going to make the Firebird substantially different than the GTO other than the 2 items I just mentioned to make a good case for it to be produced. It seems to me, the 2 Pontiacs will have to widen thier differences to both be sucessful.
Can we also say that if the GTO is the top performing Pontiac, than the Camaro will out perform the Firebird by a decent margin seeing as the Camaro will be faster than the GTO wich will be faster than the Firebird?
I know that the 80's Monte and the Camaro has some overlap, but, you could never get a real good engine in the Monte at all (TPI or a 350). They could do a similar thing with a new Firebird like I said, where they limit the car to less power than the big brother GTO and then of course, the Camaro. That could work, but then the Firebird might have a "discount Camaro" stigma attached to it and that might not work for a lot of people or the image of Pontiac.

 

You are forgetting....the coupe market is not what it used to be...not even a shadow of itself. The wild card here is also the G6 coupe...which will be AWD and have 280 HP in performance tune. Pontiac currently has two coupes..the ****fire and the Grand Am. What you are proposing is to basically expant that lineup to include...

Sunfire/Delta Coupe...whatever they call it...
G6 Coupe
Firebird
GTO
and Solstice Roaster


It simply will not happen.

The Firebird will not come back as a Camaro twin...I know it sucks..but get over it. It is too expensive...the market won't support the investment...and it makes no sense.

Big bold on the market part. GM has brand overlap in thier SUV's...but you know what...they sell and are proffitable.

A Firebirds whole niche has been that it is a more expensive, slight upgraded Camaro. That being said...if it costs more than the upcoming Camaro....it will be pushed squarley into GTO price territory. Pontiac does not need to $35,000 coupes.

GM has done some unbeleivable things over the years...but all my business sense says that there is no real gain in making the Firebird/Camaro duo happen again.

What if...they named the AWD G6 coupe Firebird?

 

I just don't see the "need" to use the name Firebird. If a new Pontiac car does not have an image of what the Firebird was for the past 35+ years why ***** out the name. We've already named other possible names Pontiac can use. Leave the name dead if its not a Firebird.

Furthermore I think its more of an opinion thing. In my eyes, I can see the GTO and a Camaro clone Firebird sitting next to each other. The GTO, Firebird, Solstice and G6 are all different car for different people. I also don’t see how a fully loaded WS6 Trans Am coming in at $35,000 slightly slower than a base GTO priced in the mid to high $30,000 is invading territory. Two different Cars for two different people. Make the GTO wanted by older crowd. Like the Vette. Basically a 4 seat Vette. The Firebird Trans Am is the upscale Camaro for the late 20's to 30's age group. I see a market. If each car is done right, if each car focuses on what market it suppose to go after, if each car is priced right and the performance is right each car will sell. Plain as that.

 

Corvette C6 $50,000 to $60,000 range running low 12s maybe high 11s with next Z06

2005+ GTO $35,000 to $45,000 range running mid to high 12s.

5th Gen Firebird mid $20,000 to high $30,000 range running high 12s.

5th Gen Camaro low $20,000 to mid $30,000 range running high 12s.

Solstice in the low to mid $20,000 with a killer turbo motor running mid 13’s.

What’s wrong with this?
There is something for everyone.

 

One could argue that the whole Saturn brand is one big overlap.....

 

Your really only argument against a Camaro clone Firebird is there is no market. You say that since SUVs and Trucks are profitable that cloning in the GM line up make sense. Why does this make sense? Well I see that it works because each car has a focus and a purpose followed up by good marketing. For example Chevy trucks are viewed as work trucks. They everyday person truck. Its like a rock. A hard core affordable truck for everyone. Now GMC’s truck are nothing more than Chevy Trucks with more options. More standard luxuries. But they do just fine. They are the professional grade trucks. Tell me why the firebird cant share a lot of engineering cost with the Camaro but become the professional, the luxury version? All you say is that the market wont support this. Do you have #’s to back up your claim. Because I say if done right each car can find its own place in the market.

I also don’t see the problem if overlapping. As long is it isn’t overdone. More options more styles off the same line means more sales for that line. That means more $$$.

 

I don't think that GTO, even if it is considered Pontiac's 'halo car', has to be faster than a top of the line Firebird...

Again, I don't think GTO buyers are going for an all-out performance car... they are going for more of a well-balanced car with a lot of power. I don't think they would be put off to a GTO just because a Trans Am could out run it by a touch, if that were the case.

If that held true, it could help eliminate some of the power positioning concerns that Sneaky Neil has brought up...

As far as Formula79's point about the shrinking coupe market... yes, you are dead on, the market has shrunk... I can't argue with that... BUT... I think a lot of that has to do with coupe lines that were left to rot. There are not a lot of choices out there right now as far as different level coupes.... therefore sales are doomed to be smaller, simply because there are less being offered.