Good point, but a lot of that 90% is due to manufacturers saturating the market with FWD and cramming it down people's throats for the last 20 years. So are 90% of the cars sold today FWD because people actually want FWD or because they have no choice? Chicken or the egg?

I'm willing to bet that of that 90%, probably well over half of those people don't really know or care what the difference is between FWD and RWD.

 

LS1_Disciple make a good point.... at least it rang true for me.

Three of the last five cars my family has purchased have been FWD. Not because we have a preference for such cars. Far from it. Not because we live in an area that experiences four seasons, two and half of which are winter. Why have there been FWD cars purchased then, you ask. Of the available choices to suit the needs and tastes at the time, there was precious few RWD cars to pick from that were new and affordable, modern and attractively styled, and practical or readily available -- F-cars, B-bodies and the Vette aside. (hey, sometimes you just can't justify a low-slung 2 door v-8 powered missile or an old man's car to your wife who doesn't your passion for (muscle)cars - one of you has to compromise)

For someone with moderately decent income, other bills and the need for practical, daily transportation that is family friendly there is/was much more diversity of choice in the FWD camp than in the "withering on the vine" RWD camp.

As far as I'm concerned, it was not necessarily all consumer-driven demand for FWD. The manufacturers and their subtle manipulation of the market played a role in the move to end the long run of affordable RWD cars. Good winter driving ultimately still requires a modicum of common sense and an appropriate tire choice; whether you drive FWD car or RWD.

 

I was just surprised that you used the swoopy sedan example.

This design was Pontiac's proposal for their version of the Impala after the "American Commodore" plan fell through. The swoopy design was meant for the US version "Zeta 2". That's why I perhaps was a little too forceful in our discussion on Pontiac early this year when you said Pontiac didn't have anything planned to go on the Impala structure. I knew Pontiac had a proposal, I didn't think you knew that, and I couldn't say anything back then and I had to be careful what I posted about Holden because at the time, they were cracking down on people leaking on the VE and their export plans.

We're cool.

Come on buddy, don't let me think we're headed into another OMG moment here.

Look at the pictures of the front structure I posted again. Please reread what I wrote and what Holden wrote. There are 2 parallel box frames. Virturally suspended from the front. The front suspension can be attached in a few areas on that frame that can alter wheelbase and the general proportions of the overhang. There is a bolt on front section that houses things like radiator, and other items... this is a load bearing support that ties in the 2 box frames. This piece is bolted on. It is also designed so that if a longer car is needed, a redesigned portion can be made & bolted on.


The same principal exists throughout the car. The rear suspension can be changed with longer arms. Floorpan can be changed. Other areas can be as well. The reason? The basic structure is engineered to allow all other attachments to be moved around it. Again, like Lego.

Don't make me have to draw pictures.

The Sigma, Espilon, and to a degree, the Delta, all can be lengthened (between the wheelbase). Sigma & Espilon can be widened (Delta actually can't), but it costs more money.

Lately, I'm willing to believe that. There's no way you could sell me that idea 6 months ago. Holden can fire up to 50,000 cars or more for the US assuming Monaro's made here and GM North America takes over large car sales to the middle east. If they do that, and GM isn't selling half of them to rental fleets, that is probally enough for actual retail buyers here.

Good article, but did you miss these entire contexts:

or this one (same article).....

You cant ignore everything else and look at this one quote...:

...and then twist it into "Dennis Mooney is lobbying GM to make the Commodore the new Grand Prix".

Motor Trend does that kind of stuff, and you see how they're regarded.

Ya don't want to go that route.


You swore that there was no Pontiac being planned for the upcoming Impala chassis. Essentially, your position was that when GM killed plans to make the Holden Zeta here, that Pontiac was back to square one and wasn't a part of the Impala program.

In reality, when it was decided that this program would be assembled at just 1 place, not 2, and Pontiac had the ability to base their design on another architecture (the next Impala supposedly has a faster back) GM styling did a design for a Pontiac & Buick variant, which they naturally would of course do.

These cars, if given the green light, at least one would be essentially a reskinned, retuned Impala, therefore not needing alot of lead time to get to production, and therefore, not needing to be "worked on" the way a donor car like the Impala or Commodore would.

G8 was the "working name" of the sedan that was supposed to replace the Grand Prix.

So "speculating", by going from point to point....
Point A: GM was making the Commodore here under the Pontiac badge. to.....
Point B: GM decided against making the car here, to....
Point C: Pontiac decided to instead hitch to the Impala, to.....
Point D: Pontiac perhaps lost that prospect because they are combining with Buick, which will have a car like that, to....
Point E: Pontiac is back to the car they started with.

Although alot of that is speculation, these things are for certain:
1. There was at least 1 Holden slated to be imported to the US from day one.
2. A company like GM doesn't "wing it", so if there's a VE coming to the US within the next 12 months, the idea most definately wasn't just thought up this past summer.
3. Whatever was previously said by certain people we both know, or predictions made, Pontiac isn't going to be left out to pasture, and it isn't going to be waiting as long as we were told for a RWD sedan.

And again, this didn't come from winging it.... it was planned.

 

This is certainly true -- Remember the old RWD Monte Carlo/Regal/Cutlass in the 80s? GM had barely done anything to those cars in 10 years, but they kept selling. When they were finally replaced with "modern" FWD coupes, the sales dropped off. GM blamed that on the lack of demand for coupes instead of the obvious conclusion -- the people buying them wanted RWD performance-oriented cars.

 

Not sure if that was the problem or that the problem was people started seeing a better product coming in from overseas.

I don't think the problem is FWD vs RWD. I think the problem is styling, reliability (real or perceived), and cost. Look at today's mid to large sedans coming out of the states. There are several to chose from. My wife and I bought a Mazda6 (I know it is a ford product). It is primarily her car. She didn't know or care about it being FWD. She knew she wanted a V6, she wanted something bigger than her previous car, a civic, and that looked nice. We got the 5-door Mazda6. It met all of these qualifications. Not one of them being RWD.

I would guess that most people wouldn't go by a car simply b/c it is RWD if there was something out there that looked better and was as practical. Most car sales today are not about performance. They are about brand name and how the car looks.

 

Take the Chrysler 300. It is probally the most compelling RWD car in a long time. It is built on a frigging Mercedes chassis, has great quality, a low price, and even comes with an AWD option. Now go compare it's sales to say, Impala, Camry, Accord, Altima, Mazda6, etc. You will see my point.

A RWD car will sell, but not in FWD bread and butter numbers. While many people here love RWD, most of Americans buy differently. Many younger buyers have now grown up thinking mom's camry is cool...so it is much easier for them to graviatate to FWD.

As much as you guys may think different, car makers build what the public want's, not vice versa.

 

Not necessarily disagreeing, but Chrysler 300 styling is pretty polarizing, and I think that may affect sales numbers. Let's also not forget that, all else being equal, a FWD car is going to be cheaper to make that RWD and, therefore, can be priced lower (or have higher content for equal price).

 

Well, the Monte Carlo/etc I mentioned tended to sell to a NASCAR audience that did care about RWD performance. The F-Body almost went FWD, as did the Mustang. There was a conspiracy to kill RWD in the US, and it was really only the backlash of the performance customers that stopped it.

But, I agree -- in the average case, FWD will be lighter and cheaper, and therefore a more rational choice for the average driver.

Now, I have no idea how many people buy the 300C because it's RWD -- but I suspect it has a not insubstantial group of drivers that just like the size/styling and couldn't care less which wheels are motivated.

 

Oh man, I hate it when you get like this Guy. You need to have yourself one of those strawberry gimletts - or whatever the heck that drink is that you drink - and relax. Anyway, like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.




As of midyear, GP fleet sales are 74% of total.



I don't think that I ever swore...I mean I never put my right hand on a bible or anything, but I haven't wavered on that assessment. Pontiac does not currently have a Zeta. In the short term, imorting a Holden may be Pontiac's only option.

Gotta get back to work, I'll type more later.......

 

Where does that data come from?

 

The last Olds that sold well was a RWD Cutlass variant.

I think it would make a really strong statement if Pontiacs were all RWD, like BMW or Infiniti.

And it's not like GM is lacking for brands here. They can afford to make Buicks drive-wheel agnostic luxury and Pontiacs RWD performance. Saturns can be FWD performance + a RWD roadster, like Mazda.

And/Or give the smaller FWD performance cars to Chevy.

 

There is evidence that this has not been the case at Ford and GM, given non-fleet sales of bread and butter cars. I think that's the point of this.

GM's been getting killed in the FWD sedan market, especially here in California. The Aura looks like a good effort and getting back a piece of that.

Japan has no midpriced RWD sedans (unless you count IS250/G35 as midpriced), so why not aim where they're not? It's been working well for GM and Ford in Australia and NZ.

 

And the Aura and the upcoming Malibu aren't exactly small cars either -- so it's not like GM is abandoning the large-midsized FWD market just because they are introducing some higher-end RWD cars.

 

http://www.fleet-central.com/af/t_po...6/cars_web.pdf

As of midyear, 13,614 GP's were sold as "retail". The remainder (38,820) were fleet, and the vast majority of those (36,302) went to rental.

 

Out here, the retail W-bodies are pretty rare, especially the newer ones. There are quite a few rentals to be found. I believe the Impala sells the best of all of them in retail. In the company parking lot, there are far more Priuses than W's, once you discount the rentals.