Actually.... he hasn't been pushing for this all summer. It was part of the plan from the start. There was a joint team from North America that worked with Holden on the car from the very begining. When the structure and the basics that concerned US complience was done, Holden finished it up while our team got cracking on something else.

Again, I hope to be writing about all this pretty soon, but no, this wasn't the result of Dennis Mooney pushing the car. This is the result of GM giving final approval after the car made the rounds through the deciding executives.

You'll see the car here quicker than you may believe.

Higher

Kinda.

Well....... that's going to be a totally different story..... a really different story.

I'm not going to stick my head in this one, but I think everyone (especially those who have been following Bob Lutz's comments the past 4 or 5 years) already knows the answer.

Hints:
1. Not a VE or a "shrunken" VE, so it's not derived from a VE... or Holden.
2. Built around a 4 cylinder.
3. Will be out in an alarming speed, meaning parts already available and costs unusually low.

Not alot of rocket science behind this one guys.... just ask Josh452.

I'm also going to take this chance to reverse myself when I indicated hell will freeze over before Pontiac gives up the FWD G6. In about 3-4 years, as long as the economy doesn't go into recession vapor-lock, and GM's turnaround becomes as extreme as I think it will, Pontiac will be an exciting division.



BTW: I agree that at the moment, the Pontiac Commodore can't be called Grand Prix. However, if GM offers to produce a car at Oshawa (which unlike Ste. Therese, isn't an inefficient plant GM wants to get rid of) that still keeps everyone working, I'm pretty sure the CAW will offer no objections in voiding that agreement and allowing the name to be used on a car assembled elsewhere. Not a rumor or fact, just a thought.

 

so will we canadians be able to buy one?

 

Not to throw cold water on everything, but after re-reading the story, Bob Lutz's only direct quote was: “Come to the Chicago auto show and all we be revealed”. We sure are extrapolating here. Well, nevermind, that's what we do.

Which plan? Which start? I know for a fact that GMX285 (the cancelled G8), was going to be built in NA.

 

My recollection is that the problem with the GTO was that it couldn't meet the Canadian bumper standard. I would have to believe that the new car can meet that standard, since bumper performance is evaluated and rated by Consumer Reports and (I think) insurance companies, and there is a bumper effectiveness sticker on every car sold in the U.S.

The Canadian and U.S. standards used to be the same, but the U.S. standard was eased in the early 1980s.

 

You're kidding right??......I'm pretty sure that You even pointed out that the Commodore was originally designed as a Pontiac. Over at C&G as memory serves. And you were correct!

But just the same, just because the "originally planned" North American built 2008 Pontiac G8 plans were shelved, does that means that GM simply had no alternative plan, and they are going to just let Pontiac whitter away because its going to take too long to get a replacement plan up because they don't have a clue what they're doing?

......Or is it more likely that GM found a more cost effective plan?


Did Dennis Mooney travel to General Motors Corperate Headquarters, and knock on every door begging and lobbying all the North American Product people to "[i]please.....please.... use my product"?

......Or is it more likely that product planners in the automotive industry, who have to coordinate new models and create vehicle portfolios years in advance of them landing in showrooms, might... just might... have to have solicit funds years in advance so that these moneys can be allocated and included in budgets, be coordinated with factories, and timed with other product's introductions and life cycles?


Not flaming or ridiculing ya or anything like that.

What I've noticed at GM (especially under the cabal of Wagoner-Lutz-Welburn) the left hand doesn't always know what the right is doing, and if someone's not actually in a position to see the big picture or at least actually doing the work themself, be a little cautious about what you hear. If I recall, even Scott made the same comment about not believing info unless the person was "actually sitting in the meetings". I started saying this about a year and a half ago. Seems that's the only way things have been getting done at GM that really need to be done.

11 months ago, there were heaps of people in GM (even in Chevrolet and key development positions) that had no clue that there was a not only a Camaro being bolted together, and not only was there a plan in place to "end-run" it into approval, but that it actually had a planned intro date of 2009 (as shown in the CADs).

I think that alone demonstrates the point.

 

What if they somehow slap the GTO name on the sedan. What of Lutz was refering to a coupe version of the Commodore?

 

Yes, a re-schozzed Commodore was to be the GMX285 G8. That with the GMX282 GTO and the GMX284 "Chevy Coupe" were to be built on the same assembly line, here in NA.
How is that the same as planning to import Australian Commodores from the start? It's not.
And actually, Pontiac took one more added segway beyond that. After the cancellation of the G8, Pontiac was pushing for something swoopier. A CLS inspired 4 door coupe. Something far different than a re-grilled, imported Commodore.

In the end, Holden may (or may not), end up shipping high content Commodores here as Pontiacs. But to say that, THAT was the plan from the beginning, is just plain false.

As far as Denney Mooney pushing to export Commodores as Pontiacs - well he has been. This is not insider info, this is from public comments where he essentially states: we are pushing to export Commodores as GP replacements.

 

OMG...Charlie!

1st it was Impalafest organizers saying they were going to show the new RWD Impala, then Zeta was no more flexable than a Delta or Espilon, then you misquoted me in another thread by indicating I said the entire front end of the Zeta was bolted on....now this!

Dennis Mooney has stated that Holden could NOT produce the volume needed for the VE to replace the Grand Prix. He's said this more than once. The closest he's gone in saying anything of the sort was that he'd have to wait and see about "exports to the US" because he had no excess capacity at Elizibeth City for at least the 1st 12 months.

It's Lutz who's pushing GM-NA to use the Commodore. Afterall, it was made for the US market as much as Australia's... but of course Mooney's only happy to fan the flames and assign a few people to help Mr Lutz along. Mooney's more concerned with getting a flawless start and getting the VE up & running. Any glitches, and it's his head on a platter.

Also, it's no secret that GM has an exclusive arrangement with Oshawa regarding Grand Prix. Again, if an article or example of "public comments" of Dennis Mooney where he actually says he wants the Commodore to be sold in the US as the Grand Prix replacement, I will gladly post a retraction here. Again, he's more focused on getting the VE line rolling (plus the wagon and Ute due due next year), getting the sales back up, and getting the RWD chassis for North America together.



As far as the idea that there were no plans to import a Holden Zeta, perhaps I shouldn't have specifically said Commodore or VE, but from the very start, there in fact were plans to import a sedan off of the Holden Zeta platform from Holden.

The 1st running Zeta prototype was made in 2003, and at the time GM had a combined Holden & North America team whose job was to work on cases for models for GM North America. Buick was definately on. I know this because I wrote the story on it back in 2003, and (to be honest) never stopped following it.

Couple of tidbits for ya.

1. Grand Prix & Commodore actually shared sheetmetal from the very start. Bob Lutz favored different sheetmetal for the US made Pontiac, GM's beancounters and many on the board favored the standardized sheetmatal with different noses & tails.

2. The swoopy design you speak of was the Pontiac proposal for the Impala based zeta sedan that ya swore didn't exist.

Let me stop now before I get flaming e-mails or black Suburbans.

 

Easy,Guy. We're just having a discussion. It's okay if someone disagrees with you.

The Impalafest organizers overplayed their hand, I even said that they should make it a point, to leak that Jon Moss wasn't bringing a Zeta Impala. Zeta, as far as I can tell from my sources, is NOT more flexible than Delta or Epsilon (which were both touted by GM as being incredibly flexible - sound familiar? ), or at the very least, you haven't convinced me that they are. And I think you have said on numerous occasions, in fact even made a point of it, that the front structures are simply bolted on like Legos - which I disagree with.

Of course, they couldn't replace the GP one for one. But subtract fleet and all the incentivised GP sales, and 20-30K Commodores may satisfy the actual buying public.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=18445






Grand Prix?? If you're talking about the former G8, it was to share most of the Commodore's sheetmetal.

And on the second point, I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying? What did I swear never existed? Pontiac WAS interested in a "4 door coupe" concept last year, after GMX282/285 imploded.

 

They honestly didn't know exactly what was to be shown. They were told "new impala SS" and had been told that GM was working on a RWD version. I'd be surprised if they even know what "Zeta" is...

 

Yeah, no problem. I was just responding to Guy's post.

 

Fleet or not, currently, using YTD numbers, the GP is 30% of Pontiac's sales. Kill it, and again that is a huge hole in the Pontiac lineup that will not be filled by a MORE expensive RWD coupe.

I think most buyers purchase Grand Prix's because they want a large performance oriented/expressive FWD sedan. They will not buy Buicks, or Chevy's instead, they will buy Altimas, Maximas, and Mazda6's. I don't think you will see many of them buying the imported G8 or whatever it is because it is more expensive, and RWD. I would over to see how many GP's are actually sold to fleets. Even if it is 40%, there is still a good 60K vehicles a year there bought by the public.

i really think the current Grand Prix with a new dash, and a less polarizing design would do awesome in the marketplace. The old GP had a timeless design, and sold for much more money during it's run because it was done right.

 

I don't disagree, especially about the FWD part. But Pontiac finds itself in something of a predicament. The W-car will be going away one day soon, and Pontiac doesn't have it's own Zeta to replace it. Taking whatever excess capacity from Holden may end up being it's only choice.

I also think that the larger NG G6 may get some interesting performance features, and interest from enthusiasts. Not with a V8, like the W-cars - which I believe to be a once in a lifetime, FWD/LS4 combo, pushed through by BL hisself - but with high horsepower HF V6's, with 6 speed trannies and FWD or AWD. Perhaps even in your choice of sedan or coupe.

And then after that, maybe.....just maybe...... even a new family of compact RWD cars.

 

Didnt GM say they want both Pontiac and Buick to be low volume , limited high profit models with very specific targets for each model ? Given that why would Pontiac need another volume Grand Prix sized FWD to appeal to the masses ? I think Pontiac is on the right track eliminating a large FWD sedan . And by their own desires who cares about hole it creates . I personally think once the smaller RWD situation is decided upon the G6 should go bye bye too as well as the Torrent , Vibe and G5 . None of them build excitement .

Trimmer Pontiac

Solstice
Solstice coupe

small RWD sedan
small RWD coupe
small RWD 3-door hatch
small RWD sport wagon ....think A3

VE 4door sedan .....the import from holden

LWB Zeta Coupe

Move the G6 hardtop over to Buick on the Elipson 2 , a Buick trimmed (G6)hardtop is better suited to compete with Chrysler and the Sebring Hartop anyways

And thats it . No sport utilites , no bread and butter sedans .....just a group of "must have" enthusist minded cars .

 

I do not think it is smart to eliminate FWD cars in the name of performance, which are nearly 90% of the cars sold today. I think a Mazda6 oriented Grand prix could still sell very well.