After reading that Z284ever's daily driver is a Contour... a little bit became more clear to me. If this is your daily driver, you are used to a smaller car... that is part of the reason your IROC feels so "honking huge" to you...

I think you are looking for a RWD Celica with a V8 in it... that's not what Camaro is or was.... or should be.

 

I'd sure like to see proof the rest of the world "sees it that way". "Rest of the world" meaning the American car-buying public, because that's all that matters in a Camaro discussion, as the buying preferences of the rest of the planet are about as relevant to Camaro as foreign laws are to our Constitution (excepting Ruth Bader Ginsberg, of course).

Americans like bigger cars. If everybody wants a tiny car, why are SUVs so popular? Do they even make the Contour anymore? I don't think they do.

A fatal flaw in your logic Charlie is that to get the interior dimensions in the Contour that you like w/o making it a big car, it is very upright. How are you going to match the same interior utility in a low-roof-height car w/o making it longer?

I think you misconstrue me and everyone else you disagree with when you imply we all want a Buick Electra 225 type Camaro. Let me get this straight: 196" long is TOO LONG. We need a reduction vs the 4th gen, not an increase. Yet, overall length isn't the ONLY issue here. For its length,the 3rd/4th gens had far too short of a wheelbase, making long overhangs. A 5th gen merely needs to chop 4-6 inches from total length and increase the wheelbase. At least 110 inches IMO. I'd really like to see most of the wheelbase growth up front...pushing the wheels up to the nose more, which would put the engine deeper into the center of the chassis and equalize weight distribution.

If we get a smaller car than 190 inches, you're not goig to be able to move the engine back as far relative to the wheels, because there's simply not enough room to work with.

The weight issue is like a unicorn....everybody wants a 3400 lbs car but nobody knows how to get there except to make the car tiny. Sure, the C6 is 3170, but do you want to pay in your Camaro for all the weight reduction strategies that would have to be employed to get the car to 3400 lbs?

Weight is relative. Look at the weights of every other coupe out there. With few exceptions you are looking at the 3600-3700lb range. Those lighter than that are significantly underpowered by comparison.

The car is going to be at least 3600 lbs, and I think that's even on Beta. With IRS and all the other stuff that's got to go into the car, not the least of which are new NHTSA regs on A-pillar strength, side air bags, blaa blaa blaa, the car's going to be heavier than most people want.

I still do not see how a Camaro that is 192 inches long with a 110-113 inch wheelbase, the right HP, the right styling, rear IRS, and 3700 lbs is somehow a travesty to the legacy of the F-body? 2nd gens were downright huge, even longer and much heavier than a 4th gen. We'd still be well inside the envelope of what has constituted a Camaro over the years.

I see a HUGE difference between what some here may want it to be and what really constitutes acceptability from a historical standpoint. Just because some might not care for it, that doesn't mean that it would not be welcomed by most enthusiasts.

Back to my first point. Why are SUVs so popular? Why has the wagon gone by the wayside? Why has the Coupe market been dying for 10+ years? UTILITY!!! People want cars that are useful to them, not nuisances. People want to be able to get groceries, put their kids in the back, see over the dash, etc.

If people are really concerned about exterior dimensions being too large, why is it I always see women, who are usually less adept at judging distances, driving the biggest SUVs? Safety and security, that's why. They perceive that large truck protects them better. They can see the road.

Zeta will be larger, yes. Too large? To some enthusiasts opinion, yes. In terms of 35 years of Camaro context? No. A Zeta Camaro would provide EVEN MORE INTERIOR room than a beta car if both were designed with the same principles, because it would be longer, stretching all other available dimensions/capacities.

Is it going to be fun to toss around in a parking lot? No, not as much fun as a civic, but a Camaro has never been that low-speed-nimble, and wasn't meant to be, it stretches its legs on the open track.

Lets please be careful not to reshape Camaro into what we individually dream of. I see this no differently than the boy racers that post polls here saying if V6 Turbo AWD would be an OK camaro. To them that is cool...to those of us who understand what Camaro is and always was, this is not cool. Build it, just don't name it Camaro.

Quite frankly if they can debut a beta Camaro with only 1 year delay vs Zeta, and it meets with the standards of what a Camaro is, looks good, handles well, has acceptable utility in the SUV age, then I'm all for it. But that also assumes MC ends up a 4 door and that Chevy can sell corporate on having a Zeta and Beta coupe in the same showroom, and then that they actually both sell and don't pirate sales from each other. If all that can happen, then won't fight it. But that's a lot of ifs.

 

Wow........ a few inches. Let's look at some theoreticals, considering we have really nothing else to draw from.
-A new Camaro comes in between 186-190" long
-The car features great styling and presence
-The car's handling and performace characteristic are extremely competitive
-It features a great interior, with more usable room than a 4th gen
In other words, it's a great overall car. Would "the rest of the world" honestly not purchase the car because it's 3-5 INCHES longer than a G35 coupe? Does "the rest of world" honestly believe that the car would be doomed to fail because of 4 or so inches? Obviously, this is based on the fact that a great Camaro is actually produced. I simply cannot understand the gloom and doom predictions of some on here. Afterall, why is the public salivating over the new larger Mustang? It's what, 3 or 4 inches longer than a G35? As long as the overall package is very good, I honestly don't see the general buying public fretting over those couple of inches. That is,what I believe, we are seeing with the new Mustang. That's just my opinion though.

Before the "you're not a true Camaro enthusiast" and "if you want something huge go buy a GTO" comments come, let me clear something up. I love Camaro and what it has stood for for so many years. IF it comes back, I want nothing more than for it to succeed. I love the fact that I can jump in my '99 after having a bad day, and by just driving I can make those problems and stresses dissappear. To me, that's what Camaro is about. So, I guess I can be thrown into "the handful of guys". I just want a great Camaro, 4 inches "too long" or not....

-Mike

 

to Mike!

I think the new Mustang is actually the perfect size. It has presence..

The G35 or 350Z to me, while I like both of them, they look like "compact" cars to me. Camaro should be on the low end of mid-sized.

G35 is too tall IMO and maybe a touch too short. Perhaps of it weren't as tall it wouldn't look as short.

 

Well if the Camaro is going to be big then the interior should reflect that. 4th gens had poor space management, they feel as big as a Monte but have an interior that is smaller than a Caviler.

 

I absolutely agree 100%. I am not saying we copy verbatim the 4th gen, that would be a waste of everyone's time.

Its not entirely accurate to assume a big car (zeta) will have a small interior while the Beta car would have a big interior. We have to assume that GM has learned a bit about interior design and space utilization and that just because a car is externally 4th gennish it won't be equally low in interior space.

We have to assume that similar principals will be applied to either chassis.

 

I am not sure if length is such an issue here as is cowl height and greenhouse size. The biggest argument against Zeta is that it will have a tall cowl, which will not be true to F2, F3, and F4. It is also likely that the greenhouse will be too large for what Camaro has been ever since F1 through F4. Somehow, pictures of GTO make it a much larger car than it is, and its greenhouse looks too large. I have not seen one in person, so there is only so much input I can give on GTO.

Having said that, here is what I'm wondering about.

As *baseless rumour* has it, there were two sports coupes under development. One that was in the CONGOS clinic that scored very well, and another that was developed off-site. The question is, who is this CONGOS coupe chasing after? If it was styled after Camaro right from the beginning, then what is the point of this off-site coupe?

The only reason for the off-site coupe is that CONGOS coupe was not entirely a Camaro to begin with. Probably some within GM thought that the coupe did not fit the formula of Camaro, despite its many cues to it.

So, if this CONGOS Zeta coupe will be the one to carry Camaro name, I am sure we can forget about this other off-site coupe. A coupe that was probably true-er to Camaro heritage.

Where are we at now? Anymore rumours/stories about this?

 

While they are in different market segments, G35 is not that far away from american muscle. It has good power, good acceleration, is wRight Wheel Drive, offers nice 2+2 seating, is comparable size... It's no longer your 240Z, not even 350Z - it has moved a lot closer than you may see/wish to admit. Lack of V8 is probably one important thing G35 lacks from being true competition.

Drive fbody and then drive G35 and toss each around corners. You'll see.


Good point. WIth this talk about SUVs because they're *utility*, you must be in the wrong place. Camaro is not ulitity.

 

Good question. Here is why we should.

Because we're talking about the Camaro's Heritage. While I have no problem with GM creating a G35 sized performance sports coupe, just don't call it Camaro. Everyone compares each new Vette with the previous ones. Everyone compares each new Mustang with the previous ones. If you're going to build a new Camaro, then you're going to have to expect comparisions to the previous generations. That's what this whole naming the Chevy Coupe Camaro issue is all about... heritage.

If you're not going to follow a logical evolution of the Camaro name and heritage, then let the name die and move forward in a different direction. Its very similar to Mopar fans being up in arms over the new 4-door Charger not following the heritage of its predecessors.

I have been a Camaro fan since I was 13. I am now 39 and I'm even more passionate about the heritage of Camaro today. However, while I am equally enthusiastic about other makes and styles of performance and sports cars; I just don't have the passion for them as I do Camaro. The G35 is a cool car in its own right. However, it will never be a Camaro in my mind.

If Camaro is to return, it needs to be evolutionary and follow a logical line of succession embracing its heritage. In my mind a G35 sized coupe does not do this. Quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of this continued abuse that seems to propogate on this website. That is people trying to find or turn every new car they see into the next Camaro. For the love of God (and the Camaro), please STOP! You aren't doing the Camaro or anyone at GM that is secretly working behind the scenes on the 5th gen a favor. Unless you're a talented budding auto designer with fresh, new ideas; or unless you're an insider that has actually seen something none of the public has seen; I really could give a ratsass of which new car coming out you think would make a cool Camaro.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

About 6 inches shorter than the 4th gen would be nice i suppose, but I don't really care. I would like an optional backup camera in my next Camaro just so I can parallel parkwithout holding my breath...

 

Well first, I don't consider the Contour a "smaller" car. I consider it a "medium" sized car....in the same class as Accord/Camry/Stratus/G6/ Mazda6.

Second, lest you think I only drive tiny cars in Shriner parades, I also have a Hemi Durango, which is, ummmm....BIG. I accept the bigness of my Durango, because I realize that it's a truck. The funny thing is, when I "climb" out of my Durango and into my Camaro.....my Camaro still feels way too big.

I guess I have different expectations for my SUV and my ponycar.

 

Yes sir. When I say rest of the world....I'm implying Americans. Medium sized sportcoupes seem to sell, large ones don't....and I mean right here in the USA. Unless, that is, you're talking about a different segment like Monte Carlo or Solara...which I don't think you are. But since you brought up foreign markets, large coupes are virtually unmarketable outside of North America. So, what's wrong with creating an enthusiast base for Camaro in Europe and Asia? I think that's a great idea.....especially as GM takes the Chevy brand globally. Mustang, BTW, has already announced it's going after Europe.

No, the Contour was discontinued in NA....ummm, right before the Camaro/Firebird. But, continued in Europe as the Mondeo, and will be replaced here soon by the Fusion.
And yes, generally, Americans like bigger cars....but not in sporty coupes...because well, some people want them to actually be sporty....reference the way the G35 sized SN95 Mustang simply buried the Camaro in sales, consistently, year after year.

Nope, my logic is without flaw, fatal or otherwise. I don't need the the interior of my sporty coupe, to match the size of a 5 passenger sedan.

This big, huge sporty car thing....I need an analogy.....

It's like the drunken frat boy, slow dancing with the big fat chick at 3:00am. The frat boy thinks the big girl looks pretty damn fine. But everyone is staring in disbelief.

Who am I ? I'm the only friend you have, who's not afraid to tell you the truth. I grab you by the collar and take you to Denny's for breakfast.

 

That's all great, except the Camaro isn't and never was a "sports car"

Vette is a sports car. GTO is (supposed to be) a "muscle car"

Camaro is supposed to be a Pony Car, which is somewhere between the two.

we can go into explaining the definitions of each term but I think most people get the differences.

 

I don't think that I used the term "sports car"......I'm aware of the differences.

 

Sporty coupe and sports car sound the same to me