And I wanna know who exactly that is too.

 

<deep breathe>... ok, here we go...


Yes, I agree the Z28 name is more important to Camaro than SS is. However, I think most of the bad things you say about SS are pure fantasy, and I think some of the things you say about Z28 are as well... same can be said for 4th Gen vs. 3rd Gen.

This is why I argue, not because I think Z28 is not important, but because I think you throw a BUNCH of untruths out about things related to this subject.

OK, you do it in-house... rather than SLP. Fine. Don't really have a problem with that, though I don't see how it changes anything.

Make the Z28 better? OK, I can see that too, but how much are you willing to add to the base price to do this?

As for basically saying "I would have made the base car a worse car"... well, I don't think I need to go there...


OK, no SS, but all the SS upgrades to the Z28... figure now that you just added $4000 to the cost of the only V8 Camaro available. Ya, that'll fly like a ton of bricks.

Now, just above, for 'some reason', you said you didn't want SLP anywhere near the Camaro... now you say if they 'had to be there', you'd decorate the car with tacky chrome SLP badges and a windshield banner?!? Holy 1987, Batman! A windshield banner?!? Sigh.... If you don't want SLP there in the first place, why are you going gung-ho slapping their name all over the car now???

So, in your mighty 3rd Gen years... what would you call the Z28 from 85 to 87? Hmmm??? Well, I'd sure call it a mid-model, since the IROC-Z was the top model. Then the Z28 was gone until Camaro was dropped from the IROC series... otherwise, the Z28 name might not even have come back at all!!! Who knows??? And then your 3rd Gen would have been responsible for killing off the Z28 name altogether!

Side note: How cool was it when Camaro dropped the IROC series, and then you got to see those cute Dodge Daytona IROC's running around??? Since you like to make funny little Chrysler references about the LS1 front clip... I don't recall a Dodge Avenger SS at any point...


No... when I think abouit the car's history... CAMARO says/deserves it all.

 

I, honestly, can see your point of view... I guess we just disagree.

Z28 was the top model on the 4th Gen from 93-95... so it did have a chance. Then the SS model was added.


So many people, inculding you, have said many times that Z28 should be the no frills, no BS V8 Camaro...and that is exactly what Z28 was...

 

Like I said earlier, the was no SS from 93-95. So I doubt they 'held back' Z28.

In fact, I think it's pretty clear that they tried to apply a successful THIRD GEN strategy of making the BASE MODEL look like the TOP MODEL...


You also didnt have the popularity and 'cool factor' of SUV, and even pick up trucks during the 3rd Gen's run. Hard to ignore the biggest selling vehicles on the road, isn't it?

The mini-van revolution didnt have near that effect on the 3rd Gen because min-vans, while popular to a certain group, never appealed to the 'cool factor' market.


Ya, and just about EVERY ARTICLE you can read circa 1993 PRAISES the 4th Gen for being LIGHT YEARS ahead of the 3rd Gen in both performance and build quality. Believe me, I read every magazine out there at that time.



What a foolish and ignorant statement. Pu-lease.

Ya, I think is probably as true as Saddam Hussein being a supporter of free speech.

I'm sure you know "dudes" (plural, no less!) who buy LS1's, and sell them a few months later, because they can't stomach being seen in them... C'Mon...

 

No frills and BS = no problem

Base Camaro V8 = no way!

If Z/28 becomes merely the V8 Camaro again......I'd rather not see it return.

 

Let me pose this situation then:

You seem to be a supporter of the 305 TBI RS Camaro from the 91-92 era... (Can throw in 88-90 as well, but I'll use Z28 years instead of IROC-Z years to simplify)

Let's say that the V8 RS car did not exist, yet the V6 RS remained.

With the exception of the hoof louvers and rear wing, slightly different grille, and some headlamp pocket blackout paint, the Z28 looked exactly like the RS.... doesn't that make it a "base car with a V8" just as the much as the 4th gen (strictly looks-wise, since we are obviously ignoring other mechanical differances such as suspension stiffness, etc)? Or does a different spoiler and hood bumps make that much difference ?


Now, even if you add the 305TBI RS back into the mix... isn't the 91-92 Z28 "just a base Camaro with a bigger V8"?


Note: I am all for differentiating the models.... I just dont think the 3rd Gen did as much of that as some people think... I think the 4th Gen took an idea started with the 3rd Gen and ran with it from the beginning.

 

By '91-'92, the 3rd gen was ten years old. GM was doing alot of things to spice up an old and tired line. One of them, was trying to make lower models appear like upscale models.

A more appropriate comparison might be to compare '82 models with more differentiation, (if powertrain only had it's act in gear).

But let's get back to '91-'92.....the Z/28 certainly had some differences from a V8 RS.

I think anyone who has driven a Z/28 with a G92 or 1LE will tell you what a huge difference there was. It wasn't just a "bigger" V8.

Sooo.....from my particular point of view.....if GM is not capable of bringing back the Z/28 properly, I'd rather not see the name dragged through the mud anymore. Just drop it, and call it RS, SS, LT or whatever.

Instead...I may have visions of "Boss" and "Cobra" dancing through my head.

 

True... I would agree with this... GM seems to have a tendancy to offer the lower models with higher model appearance trim as they get long in tooth.

Perhaps, but here-in lies my point... the 4th Gen attempted to carry over a successful late-3rd Gen strategy by making the base car look like the Z28... I think this was done as a way to help Camaro, not hinder Z28, but this action did backfire to a degree.

Well, I can argue that the LT1 (and then LS1) wasn't just a "bigger" engine...

I guess what this all boils down to is that there is such a fine line on all of this ...

 

Basically what you are arguing about is a badge. A badge. A little 99 cent piece of plastic on a couple fenders is the difference between a Camaro done right and a Camaro done wrong? The difference between buying the next Camaro or stepping into a freaking Mustang?

If Camaro offers the varying levels of trim and performance at reasonable price points at each step, it will be a great car regardless of what alpha-numeric code each level wears. This is why the SS/Z28 tired old argument is such a waste of time for me personally.

 

A badge.... huh!? How about what that badge represents? And you think those last badges cost 99 cents? They looked more like .00099 cents to me.

You my friend have once again completely missed the point.

Do you really think putting Z/28 emblems on a 4th gen SS is enough to do it for me???!

The Z/28 is more than that. It has mystique, it has heritage, it has attitude, it has cache, it has style, it has focus, it has DESIRABILITY.

Do you see what I am getting at?

I want all that AND THE BADGE!!!!!!!!!!

 

Exactly. And thats what I also want to represent the top Camaro.

DXed, since we do not agree with practically anything that is being discussed in this post, I see no sense or reason to keep going back and forth with you just so we can keep disagreeing again and again. I honestly have better and more important things to do.

 

Well why not? For most of Camaro's history Z28 was simply "the top model". So if a Z28 badge swapped with the SS badge from 1996-2002 it would have been the same thing....

You guys can't even agree about what you want Z28 to be! IZ28 simply wants Z28 to be the mass produced top model, while you and Doug Harden want a road-race ready, hardtop and stick only, limited production Z28. The concept of what Z28 should be is already blurred here, so who am I supposed to listen to?

 

No no Z28W, that is NOT what I want. I would like to see the 5th Gen Z28 be an almost all-out performance car, which would mean it would be lower production. (but not too low, not limited) If it became the most bought then that would probably be good for GM but I don't think a car like that would have the highest sales obviously. It would be the Camaro you do not want to mess with at all. Let the SS have more luxuries, the smooth ride, and the most sales. Let the Z28 have the no compromise suspension, better brakes, the most power, whatever, kinda 1LE-like but still available with all the usual stuff like AC and an Automatic option. (with a high stall converter and ratchet shifter!! ) I'd let there be T-Tops but no convertable and it would have its own unique look. The Camaro that takes out the most powerfull M*stang and is meant for performance and to be driven. I'd like to see it go: Base-RS-SS-Z28. If we gotta keep the SS in there that is. But no "upgrades," make the SS more than a Z28 with an emblem. With its own look and broader appeal it would be like there was 2 top models, the SS for some1 looking for real good performance with comforts and the Z28 for some1 looking for all-out craziness with normal options since there is no reason to delete all kinds of things these days because of the tech advancements, but it could always be an option to do so if you wanted.

 

C'mon Darth, that can't be true about the big bad 4th-gen

Badges, especially for a car like Camaro, are very important IMO. We're talking about the heritage and history of the nameplate itself. That being said, I think that there is room (and quite possibly a need) for both the Z/28 and the SS. The thing that is absolutely crucial is better model differation. Let the SS be the torque rich Mach 1 like vehicle, while the Z/28 slots in as Camaro's version of a ZO6. BOTH have been important to Camaro past & present, and both deserve to continue on with the car.


-Mike

 

I'm not sure how any 160mph car can be "uninspiring." Let's face it, the LS-1 Z28 was the cheapest and fastest of the "Z/28" breed. That was more than enough for me. The fact that it didn't look like a "circus wagon" helped too.

Aside from a SS-style hoodscoop, there is very little Chevrolet could have done to improve the appearance of the Z28. If a person is all that concerned with image, they wouldn't have purchase a car called "Camaro" anyway.