Just for you younger pups. The GTO turned into the Grand Am in 1973 or 1974 because of the gas shortage and lower compression motors. They were dogs. So it's natural the new GTO's are going to be styled after the Grand Am when it comes back.
I know because I had a 1975 Grand Am with the 455 motor. Had the Judge wing too.
Jeff D.

 

I too am dissapointed with GM's "Just good enough" efforts. Even many of it's new products, while worlds better than the cars they replace, seem to be "just good enough". I keep waiting for this wave of killer products, but they don't seem to be "killer." As GM supporters, we need to let the largest and greatest car company in the world that we expect them to act like it.


Originally posted by BigDarknFast


Quality & Features I care about and want in the next Camaro:

1. Reliable and simple V8 with high HP, torque and fuel economy
And cheap, too.
2. Knockout styling and innovative features such as versatile interior reconfigurability
Versatile interior reconfigurability? Like a minivan?
3. Interior trim quality as good as that on today's FBody
You mean early 1990's era fit and finish? That'll go over well...
4. Modern safety equipment such as ABS/TCS
[b]ABS- Yes. Keep the TCS optional. [/b[

Quality & Features I simply don't care if I see in the next Camaro

I expect most of these in ANY car, even a KIA these days.

1. Fancy, sophisticated DOHC valvetrains which allow me to brag to my friends that "it's a DOHC" I don't care as long as it's cheap and fast
2. Perfect and tiny exterior panel gaps
why wouldn't you want them? They imply good design, make the car look like it was an engineered piece, not made in someone's garage
3. Invisible interior plastic mold parting lines Why don't you care about a well designed interior? This doesn't have to cost more. In fact, it can cost less.
4. Supple, smooth leather on every surface of every seat
keep it optional. I like cloth (but not that mouse fur crap.
5. Doors that make a satisfying sound upon being slammed Why? Don't you want your friends to get in and think "what a well built car" not "damn it sounds like metal hitting metal."
6. Complete lack of those embarrassing interior fasteners Why? do you want to see them?
7. Tasteful PlastiChrome accents in all the right places You don't want a little brightening up? None?

 

Say what?!!

Perhaps you'd like to check these out:

1973 GTO: http://www.angelfire.com/il/GTOpagetwo/73GTO.html
1974 GTO: http://www.angelfire.com/il/GTOpagetwo/74GTO.html

Production figures, including 1973 & 1974 (courtesy of Brandon's site....yes, a plug ):
http://www.newagegto.com/pro_num.htm

The GTO was downsized after the energy crisis of 73, in an attempt to get back to the basics & to regain popularity by basing itself on a car class that was selling extremely well at the time.

The new GTOs are based on Bob Lutz's view of what all Pontiac's new style should be (and the convienent coincidence that the Monaro with a different nose falls into that idea), since GTO has always looked like other cars in Pontiac's line up.

You are right in one point. If GTO wasn't killed off, it would most likely be the Grand Am GT with the "ram air" scoops.

 

Actually the 73 GTO was just about as fast as the 64

GTO's were never really the fastest cars out there.

 

Doug, I wanted to go back to the origional topic, no long lost in this furvor.
I met ya at the US Nationals/Camaro show in 2001. I know ya don't remember I was with Red quite often. Great show, your a great Camaro suporter and I know Red reguards you very highly.
And while I can't speak for Red nor will I try. I will say you have valid concerns and as a former GM worker I can tell ya your not alone in your gripes.

That being said I value just like I'm sure Red does your opinion for GM and the products they produce because I know you deep down bleed Chevy red.

Now to address some of your points, if I may;
The GTO, well whare do I start. I think its best to look at the Monaro/GTO as a test the water kinda car. Its ment to come here fill a performance gap at Pontiac and stir some excitment for Pontiac that will bring some new blood into the showrooms. Something that will actually be "Fuel for the Soul."I know the styling isn't much but its a fantastic car in Austrailia and I KNOW people's opinions of it will change with a test drive. Give it a chance it'll grow on ya! Its more like Audi inside than a Grand Am! I don't need to defend the power of the LS1 under the hood do I??
But IF things go well and enthusiasm is high enough and GM sells the cars they bring over you can count on more vehicles like it down the road.... even our own GTO from America and potentially a Chevy to follow....

Silverado SS, All I can say is like the Extreem S10 that was a hit in the past this truck isn't made to compete head to head with a Lighning. GM and Ford have different ideas on this and sadly GM doesn't see the need to beat a Lighning. They see sport trucks as more viseral appeal than blazing performance. While this truck is no slouch GM's idea is to look good handle good (for a truck) and still get the job done, AWD, 4dr Club Cab, it will be a stylish truck for the people who want something other than a reg Silverado with some exclusiveness. Although because of the obvious similarities with the Lighning and now the Ram SRT, GM will have to up the performance to atleast compete. The 6.0L in the SS rated at 345hp could easily be bumped to 385-400hp w/o really stretching its streetabiliy..... CAFE wouldn't like it!!!

35th Anniversary I think it was very nice and very popular for what GM wasn't willing to do with it! Red made that car happen and thats a direct tip of the hat to him! GM woulda had no trouble saving the cash from that. But thats Red's way of giving back to the loyal F-body faitfull sending the car our properly and letting the world know that after 35 years the Camaro and Firebird are alive and well still living in the garages and hearts of all those ever touched by their presence!

Future Camaro who knows?? But one thing is true if the car does return it will be the guys like Red that keep it true to its heritage!

"Keep the Faith" well its become our F-body loyal battle cry because we don't have much else. They say that patience is a virtue, and good things are worht the wait, but only time will tell... So while I wish that there was something more I could say or something else I could do to make you and the others on this board know that things will work out I can't. The road ahead for the Camaro hopeful is long and dark with more turns and twists ahead... I wouldn't blame anyone who decides it isn't worth it because really it's NOT!
But this is what we have to deal with so what else is there to do??

 

Red's a great guy, and even though at times I razz him at times, it's only when I have a difference in opinion with something he says. I never question his efforts & his devotion to Camaro.

But I think some of us assign God-like powers to him. He's not the reason for all the things wrong with GM (or Camaro's demise), just like he isn't going to be the one to bring it back. He's not about to do anything to put his job in jepordy taking some stand or another attempting to force higher ups to produce a car that isn't going to be made yet, or spill the beans on a new one (though hints can at times be just as good) to us here, or anywhere else.

I simply accept him for what he is, a working stiff at GM whose passion for Camaro is as strong as anyone else's here, and is the voice of Camaro enthusiasts, but not the actual decision maker on this.

GM being what it is (Ford has Team Mustang, the Corvette guys ran Camaro.....which car do you think benefited from their budget) we are lucky to have him as a phone line to the inside. But I think we are going a bit overboard ranting to him about the ills of GM. That's like preaching to the pastor.

 

.....who dusted off this old relic?

Basically, I posted these questions to Scott as a means to open a dialogue to find out the mindset of GM at the moment......

I have since spent a few hours sitting around in lawn chairs at Bowling Green (last Sept....this post was made originally back in June or July) and picked his brain and cussed and discussed these and many more topics.

Believe me, I know Scott's mindset, but wanted to poke and prod some to see where the backbone of GM is hiding these days.

I came away with the notion that better days are ahead, but many battles lie in the way.

 

Ok let me pop in here for one min.
When you guys Talk about Scott why do I get the feeling you guys are Assuming he has a say in what happens in GM? When He dont. His title is not GM (General Manager) Of GM. He was the Asst brandmanager for Camaro. Now he works in a diffrant area.


yes he can get some information out to us. But hes not in charge of every thing. So give him a break guys. Its not his doing.

hell Its not even Bob lutz doing. This processe started LONG before he came in. But I can tell you this GM is starting a 2nd Muscle car era No matter what you guys think. The cars that will be coming out will be totally diffrant then what we are use to seeing. Starting with the GTO.

If you want to go over & buy a Mustang kewl Go do it no love lost here.

 

It's been fun reading this old relic of a thread...

WERM - I understand your points about quality attributes. My point about reconfigurability relates to being able to flop down the rear seat and swallow a mountain bike... I value that in my car. And it's why I hope the next Camaro is a hatchback. As for quality features like exposed fasteners... as a matter of fact I STILL do not care! And I don't care about heavenly-door-slam-sounds... nor tight exterior panel gaps (Anyone given thought to what they do for body shop repair costs BTW? hMMM?). Chrome - you can have it. The IS300 is a cornucopia of chrome - knock yourself out and buy one if you want. Speaking of cheap-looking... how about the fake scoops and thin gage exhaust tips on the Mustang GT?

 

krazzycowgirl, good points but I think the letter and the intent of this post was simply info and the sharing of it. Red has for amny who've never met him and only see whats been posted here has become a inside contact that people here can interact with. While he's never given out future info,but made plenty of hints, he's taken the false info out and kept things as true as he could.

Is he just another GM marketing person, yea, but can he have an effect on future developemnt you bet! While he can't bring the Camaro back and he was not resonsible for its demise, no one person was, he can be one of those internal fighters that are getting more numerous as time passes.

Can Bob Lutz bring the Camaro back, no, but his blessing will go a long way to doing so.

2nd Muscle car era, well that depends on how you look at it.....

 

Wow...blast from the past.

Thought I'd interject my opinions as well.

For one, I am tired of GM trying to tell people what they want as opposed to listening to what they want. Now before everyone jumps over me, I believe I have heard more than my share of complaints from potential F-body buyers in the past that the dealers wanted to sell them a Cavalier or a Sunfire, or even a Malibu . The change needs to involve the dealers as well, because this is where the public gets it's biggest impression of the company.

For two, the aggregious (sp?) use of the ressurection of the SS moniker is horrendous. There used to be a day where the SS symbol on the grille of a car meant is was far and away a better model than the normal. Camaro SS 396...Chevelle SS 454...I could go on and on. Hell, even the 1500 454 SS was worthy of the name. But it seems that those days are long gone. We have a SS truck now (while I applaud the use of AWD and an extended cab, it needs a lot more power, and the extended cab be an option) that fell way short of the expectations of the show car. We have a SSR that while a great concept, may not live up to the hype. And SS is appearing on everything from Impalas to trucks, a moniker once reserved for 'the big boys.' At least, this is how this fan sees it.

And perhaps where we need to address the problem. GM puts out some really good show cars, especially over the last 10 years. The problem is, when it gets to showrooms it is either so bloated, underpowered, or an appearance package that I think: What was the point of the show car? It's like meeting someone with a Vette and then going back to their place to see a mobile home. You can only fool someone for so long.

That said, I think the 35th model was a dissapointment to me. Everyone knew the F-bod would die around 2001-2002, even back before 1999. It was one of the worst kept secrets there was. There was plenty of time to get with the true Camaro enthusiasts (and Firebird, for the CE) and see what fans wanted to see for the 'last' year. When you look at it this way, you would think there would have been plenty of time to produce a really fitting tribute to a retiring legend. With the LS6...with some better interior enhancements...with some more styling options...I could go on and on.

And before I go any further, I must address the interior issue. I love the fact that you can get into a Z28 or a T/A and it be all business. But, that can also be boring, too. There are no tasteful accents (like were mentioned with the Bullitt), there is no special features for optioning to the SS (as far as I can tell). I seem to get more out of a Mini interior than I do a F-bod one. I've owned a lot of different cars, driven many more. Sitting in a F-bod interior, it just seems really plain. I'm the kind of guy that likes different options, to make my car feel more 'me.' And believe it or not, this is where Ford comes out on top. This is also a big part of the import scene. Hell, at least the interiors in my Jeep and Eclipse were too different colors (tan and black), so at least you had a little something to break the monotony.

What I would like to see out of GM (especially for the F-bod, if indeed it is coming back ) is to see some choices. Sign up with a wheel manufacturer to offer a few different wheel choices from the factory. Lets see some color accents on the doors, ebrake, trim (may it be chrome, red...anything tasteful), just something to break up the one color doom setting. Offer a short throw for a couple bucks.

Let us actually build a car with you, not buy cookie-cutter Z28s that you see 10 on a lot, and they are all optioned the exact same way, because there aren't a lot of options to choose from in the styling department.

Come back with a bang, not with a wimper. Consult us.