Doug - my apologies if you took my comments personally. I was commenting on your actions, not your person - so allow me to retract calling various folks "whiners" (although I still believe there is whinING going on here). And congratulations on running your own company... but I'd be amazed if it is as large and complex as GM. Perhaps though, you can shed some light on this contradiction:

Uh-huh...

Funny thing about "just good enough"... It's good enough for a large majority of buyers. Unlike you, I've never looked upon my Formula as that. I love my car, and it has exceeded my expectations in most areas. I love the styling, a cross between a Jaguar XKE, Ferrari Modena and previous Firebirds. It has gobs of power and torque, a simple and efficient rumbling V8, T-tops and other luxuries. I frankly couldn't care less if the interior shows embarrassing mold parting lines upon close inspection.

BTW, I'm still lurking that thread over on Stangnet, and counted another Cobra owner pulling to the right, another with a blown engine, and another with major paint flaws. Hmmm... NOT good enough for my hard-earned $$$.

Hasn't worked, unless you are an LS1 owner today, or a Z06 owner, or a CTS owner....

Here's my letter to RED:

Thanks for your fanatical devotion to the Camaro. I have not waivered in my faith on the Camaro's future. I am waiting patiently to buy the next one, and I am sure it will be a knockout muscle car in the best sense of the term, with great value, power, styling and a history like no other! Keep up the good work Red Planet!

 

BDF,
"I frankly couldn't care less if the interior shows embarrassing mold parting lines upon close inspection".

Well I do!! When you shell out mid-30s for a car. I damn well expect near perfection.

If I were to say that I could buy a BMW for that price and get excellent quality, a whole bunch of you would write back that you don't get the looks or performance of the F-body. So that line of reasoning tells me that there are alot of people who don't care about quality but just want a big motor.

This goes right along with what some of the other guys were saying. By accepting these little flaws, they will keep on giving these flaws back to us. GM needs our feedback, Whether positive or negative.

 

I was obviously remarking to those who think that the "cons" on the GTO "hate" the car and keep repeating the lines about the performance. I can see how you made the assumption though, I'll try to be more precise in the future...

As far as running my own company....it doesn't matter if you're large or small, you still need to respond to your customer base...and be competitive in the marketplace...that simple business 101.

 

HuJass - You're certainly within your rights in demanding higher quality... and granted there are strides yet to be made by GM there. I'm not about to say I haven't noticed the quality issues on my Formula. The mold parting lines, large exterior panel gaps, the two sets of front brake rotors I went thru (under warranty BTW) before I went to Raybestos ceramic pads. More quality would be nice. But for me, the quality today is good enough considering the other attributes of the car (YES that includes the engine ). Plus there's a lot more inherent value in a C/E T/A... it's collectability in the future, the unique color, the new cam and LS6 intake to name just a few. I came very close this year to trading up to a 2002 Formula but other priorities came first in our family. In my mind there is no comparison to be made to a BMW... BMW's are simply not an American-designed muscle car or pony car like the FBodies with their rich racing and street legacy. Sorry to say it, but I will still want a 2006(?) Z28 even if it has *unsightly* plastic mold lines! That is, if the rest of the car is cool

Doug - I am seeing your point better now... guess I was reacting to a perception of a widespread complaint about lack of GM high-performance in general. I simply do not believe GM generally is suffering from such a lack of offerings for performance enthusiasts. It would be nice if there were more - but how many is enough? And the ones out there now are quite good IMHO. Don't like how the GTO looks? Simple... Don't Buy One. Personally, I dislike the stubby look of new Mustangs. So for that and other reasons, I didn't buy one. It's great that the Mustang is still making so many owners happy, and great that the new Cobra has boatloads of power. I feel though that I'm also within my rights if I avoid them due to quality issues and other reasons.

 

Well said Doug. I also am a small business owner.

One difference between a large company like GM and a small business is...in small business if you don't cater to your customer base and stay competitive...you lose.

And when I say you, I'm not talking about your shareholders or division ...I mean you personally. No golden parachutes if you miscalculate, no luxury of losing a billion dollars per quarter, for two or three years before realising you should do something...the financial well being of you and your family are on the line every day.....so you quicken your step and become very responsive.


Personally, I think big companies, like GM, could learn alot from small business owners.

 

I have had my share of negative things to say lately. But I don't think I am "GM bashing" What I am doing is calling the company to the mat for less-than-acceptable effort.

I was dissapointed with the anniversary F-cars, but considering the budget and the fact the cars are going away, I could totally understand the lack of major comittment/investment. As for the GTO, I don't have a bad thing to say about it. Yes the front facia is a minimal investment, but lets not overlook the huge investment GM is making, not just in terms of money, to bring the darned thing over here at all. Its going to be a great car.

My biggest gripes are the 50th Ann. Corvette and the Silverado SS. I won't go into details because others have covered that already, but its simply a lack of effort and commitment.

The comments about the Bullit are dead on. Ford has spent some dollars (dollars they don't really have, by the way) to make a statement, a conversation piece. Same with the Cobra. The darn thing comes with Brembo brakes for goodness sake. I was reading MM&FF do a cobra vs. SS comparo, and the details on the Cobra are so impressive....the little things. Chrome ringed gauges, the previously mentioned Brembro brakes, the unique facia...etc.

I would be embarassed if I were GM and I could not do for the 50th anniversary of my state-of-the-art flagship model what Ford has done with a 20 yr old Fairmont-based pony car. More than stickers and off-the-shelf red Z06 calipers was in order for the Vette.

I complain because I love GM automobiles. I am loyal, but that loyalty is being tested and I believe has been taken for granted in large part by the corporation. That's not to say Scott hasn't been working his but off for the enthusiasts, but one man can only do so much. I complain because if I don't, it will never get better and might even get worse.

But, that brings a paraphrase of an old saw: "if I scream on a message board and no GM brass is there to hear it, did it make a sound?"

Having said all that, I do believe there is light at the end of the tunnel. But it looks to be a long tunnel indeed.

------------------
Owner, Nashville Speed & Performance

1996 Trans Am WS6

 

I reiterate, resting on past laurels will get you left behind in a hurry. You must keep trying new ideas and new approaches - which GM is very hesistant to do lately. Thus all of the implications to "vintage days" via "vintage names" and the "stripes", instead of new parts and new names making a new statement all their own.

Honestly, for the pure corporate-GM, the perverbial "crystal ball" semms to be stuck in reverse, don't you think? Subaru, Holden, and others seem to be doing pretty well, IMHO.

 

AWESOME POST. This is dead on the money. Well said and well thought-out. I wish folks really understood the difference between "bashing", and "criticism". A person's quick response does give you quick insight into their personality though, insofar as whether they are a negative (um, make that pessimistic) or positive(um, make that optimistic) type of person, no?


EXACTLY. HuJass, you are totally entitled for the mold designers to put a little more thought into the location of parting lines and ejector pins. In the end, the finished part would take no more time or material to yeild a nice piece over an ugly one.

Asking for such things should not only be an issue, but even your "duty", if you see yourself as having a vested interest in making future F-bods get better.

Doug, Z284ever, PonchoFan, and others of you have also posted some great lit on this topic. You guys ARE EXACTLY the kind of people who made Ford recognize the Mustang had a huge following, and helped to turn things around for it. You present a case with fact as well as emotion and do it in a professional manner. My hats off to you guys! :tips hat, bows head:

I'd be proud to be associated with any of you guys regarding issues like this.

 

Chris - I don't think you're bashing either. Would it be nice if the 50th Vette was more "substantial"? Sure. A real fire-breathing Silverado SS would be nice too, but I'm not a buyer of either vehicle type so simply do not care. Are you actually on the market for a Vette or a muscle truck? I looked at the V8 Dakota R/T in 1999 when I ordered my Formula. I decided against the Dakota b/c I am just not a truck person and don't need a truck bed.

All this hype about the trinkets on today's Mustangs... Brembo brakes... say, why doesn't the Z06 have them? Simple. Z06 brakes are plenty good enough without resorting to an outside supplier. Chrome instrument rings... yawn. Fancy-pants fuel filler lids... ZZzzz...

Personally I am happy with GM's priorities as shown in my Formula. It has the features that matter to me (ABS/TCS, power options, leather, simple/powerful/efficient V8) and good quality to boot. In contrast, I do not appreciate Ford's approach of overpromising features and quality and then underdelivering, especially as seen lately with the new Cobra.

ProudPony, your tactics are cute, pretending to be positive when in fact most of your posts I have read on this site are quite negative in their tone towards GM and GM products. Your praise of others is consistently found where they are also negative of GM. You clearly have every right to post your opinion but as a GM fan I do not welcome your approach.

 

The Zo6's brakes are actually identical to a regular C5. I just put C5 brakes on my car last weekend with the use of some adapter plates that I now sell through my business that were made for me by a guy on from the AutoX forum. The Z06 just gets better pads and red calipers rather than the regular grey calipers. Let me just say its a HUGE improvement over stock 93-97 brakes.

Oh and I am not actually in the market for any car. I bought mine USED because it was a far better value for $17k, two years old and 24k miles than brand new for $29. I was within a hair's breadth of trading for an '02 SS last fall though, and decided there were better uses for my money than spending $33K on a car that will be worth $12 by the time I pay it off.

I'm not saying the Cobra brakes are better simply because they say Brembo, but they went through the effort and expense of upgrading the car's brakes, I don't think they would have shelled out a couple grand per car for brakes if they weren't better than the stockers.

One of my gripes is that as cost has played an ever larger role in decisions for these cars, we've lost all our choices. V8 fbodys don't get better brakes than the V6s, and until they brought the SS back out there were no visual distinctions between v6 and v8 models. Z28 hasn't been visually distinguishable from the v6s for 10 years now.

It is those small touches, the gas filler lids that you scoff at, etc. etc. etc. that really "finish" a car and make it stand out. I agree its kinda ricey to add that kind of junk, but if its OEM it is very cool IMO, especially if there is some functionality to it.

------------------
Owner, Nashville Speed & Performance

1996 Trans Am WS6

 

Chris - you make some good points. Brembo brakes are better than standard Ford brakes. But my point was, why can't Ford simply provide brakes that good on their own or thru a subsidiary like Visteon? GM does so with the Vette.

I got my GTP used too. You can get some great deals that way... and for those who complain a lot about FBody depreciation, those who are "positive and optimistic" ( ) can use that to their advantage to get a muscle car for a song. Funny thing though... my Formula appreciated in the last year! I was all ready to sell it last summer and did a lot of research on values and pricing. A lot of sites, like Kelly's Blue Book ( www.kbb.com ) were too optimistic (ugh there's that WORD again) as to the value back then... but I distinctly recall www.edmunds.com 's "True Market Value" being the most accurate, putting my Formula at about $15,100 in Detroit, with 30K miles. I had a buyer in my driveway offering $15k cash. Then my plans changed (wifey nixed me ordering a 2002 SOM Formula! Blast!) and I kept the car. This summer, guess what Edmunds says of my Formula, now with 38k miles: $15,333!!!!

It appears to me the marketplace values Fbodies and Mustangs for different reasons. The Mustang: more popular with women, due to command seating and other girly-type features. The FBody: tire-shredding HP and torque

And this stuff about visual distinctions... yes I can see some complaining about differentiating between a Z and a V6 Camaro. However, some people Prefer things this way too. There's also not much visual difference between a V6 and GT Mustang. And I for one am GLAD my Formula looks like a V6 Firebird... more like a sleeper, especially with a single-outlet WS6 muffler. Those wanting a striking Fbody can get a WS6/SS.

I cannot picture a fancy, heavy chrome fuel filler I would like to see on a 4gen Z28 or Formula. Maybe it's just my tastes but as another example, I find the plasti-chromey taillights on the Lexus IS300 supremely GAY.

One more point about the Silverado SS... If I were on the market for a fullsize pickup, it would be a prime candidate for me. One thing I dislike about the Lightning is the lack of a back seat for my two little tykes. If I want it to scream, there's a bountiful aftermarket of heads/cam/intake/headers etc for the Gen III V8. No heavy, complex superchargers needed, Thank You Very Much.

------------------
NBM 99Formula, DF Lid, K&N, SLP WS6 Takeoff Muffler | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, transcooler
| Dark Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, stock

[This message has been edited by BigDarknFast (edited July 08, 2002).]

 

Probably because the Brembo name makes the car more appealing and carries more status. That way they can say "the powerful new Cobra comes with Brembo brakes" instead of just "upgraded brakes."

Uh-oh. Hope you have that flame suit zipped nice and tight!!!



------------------
Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

 

Thanks! I'll take that as a complement!

Tactics... Pretending... Do you really think I have nothing better to do than scheme, think-up, and create deceptive ways to come to this board and put down GM? If all I wanted to do was bash GM, I'd got to any Ford board and have at it! How sad...

In fact, I DO offer complements to GM when they are do. And I am the first to say that I love the Camaro as much as any enthusiast - kind of like sibling rivalry. Vettes rock hard. Classic GM cars rock hard too. My car buddies know that I am virtuous in that aspect. You, however, have not had the opportunity to meet me in person, you know nothing of what my hobbies are or interests are - except for "some car stuff" - so I can totally overlook that you make presumptions about me based solely on what you read here.

I look at myself coming here kinda like being the teacher everyone hated in grade school. The one that gave you the most work, graded you hardest, and made you do more. You hated the b*t*h when you were there, but after you moved on and got deeper into life, you realize she was probably the best teacher you ever had. I am a car nut - period. I come here (and on other boards too) to try and get GM to field a musclecar/ponycar ASAP to compete with Mustang again, and I want it to be WORTHY competition in every way - not just 1/4 mile times.

NO - I don't roll out continuous praise to GM. I'm not going to either. Likewise, I don't roll out continuous praise to Ford on their sites either. They get my opinion - good or bad - when an issue comes up. Besides, the theme on this thread was... "Yippie for GM! They're perfect!" or what? I don't expect everyone to agree with what I think, but mutual respect is not too much to ask for, IMHO. I do not "bash" - it is not my style.

I can say this much... I think I have more enthusiasm and desire to see a new wholesome ponycar come from GM than alot of GM brand-loyalists, and at least I am out here trying to get something done towards that end, not just "hoping for the best".

BTW, I have had both agreements and disagreements with many on this board. I don't just "pat the back of a person who calls GM on a bad point." It is nice to be acknowledged by others who agree with you, especially when you are part of a minority trying to create a positive change. I simply like to let others know when they have made a point I agree with - right or wrong. Whether you like it or not, guys like Doug, HuJass, Chris, and others making their points are exactly what GM needs to hear - and begin reacting to. As I read it, they too want GM to get better - nothing less. I'm just an easy scapegoat because I am a Ford guy - on GM turf - and I'm not hiding it. Thats cool w/me, I'm a big boy, and I can take it.

Imagine, all this writing without a personal attack. Novel concept, eh?

BDnF, we've seen eye to eye on other issues, so I hate that you feel this way about this topic/point. But as a muscle car lover - I ain't going to fold up and go away. I owe it to the hobby/sport that I love to do what I can to keep it alive and well. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 09, 2002).]

 

ProudPony,
As far as I'm concerned, your posts are more than welcomed here. The whole reason for these forums is to create an open debate.

As far as GM bashing goes...well whats wrong with that. I'm a GM guy, and I'd like to see GM produce the most exciting cars on earth!

I can't see how that could happen unless we verbaliize our dissatisfaction with certain products and voice our preferences for others.

So if you've got a GM beef...let's hear it. And BD&F your inputs are always interesting and welcome also....I consider you the loyal opposition.

 

Thanks! I appreciate the support.
I honestly would be more concerned if I didn't ruffle a few feathers over here - but I think some feathers need ruffling... GM really needs to step up for us enthusiasts.

I think most realize that I don't post in your Lounge at all, I almost never post on truck-based threads, and I seldom post on tech/platform-based threads (like the Sigma) unless they relate to getting a Camaro-like product from them. Point - my interest lies in getting GM to give back Camaro/Firebird cars... done right, done soon!

My interest here is purely in the continued livelihood of affordable American Musclecars. One way I see this happening is to get involved in giving GM the message. The Mustang-thing was all done with letters, petitions, and displays at shows back in the '80's because the internet was in it's infancy then. But the shear volumes of feedback were what clued Ford into making drastic changes in the way it treated the Mustang. NOW - we have the internet, and with Red, Silver, and other folks on the "inside" reading here, I know we get heard. This board is consistently named in GMHTP and other mags, so you know it gets read.

I would honestly like to see GM start recognizing some of you guys' suggestions and POV's. There are a lot of really savvy car guys posting in this forum, and GM is nuts not to give you guys some credit and attention!

Peace.