So what is true?

 

I'll remember you said that in a few months.

But again, this isn't an instance of the tail wagging the dog. Lutz didn't make those comments to "force" a GTO. Lutz made those comments because he recently "released" the GTO to be part of the RWD program that's going to be considered soon for final approval, and he knows the case and business plan for it is overerwhelming. THAT'S why he made the comments, and hopefully, clarifies my previous posts.

I can't possibly be any more blunt and straightforward than that, can I?

 

Possibly, but unless you are an engineer, or at least good at bridge repair,(from your own hints) I wouldn't recommend it

 

I don't see why a GTO (or Firebird) that was a reskinned Camaro would be such an issue if you think about it.

#1- Camaro and Firebird BOTH sold well for several years. Their sales did not tank until it was convinent for GM that they do so. Also for those who play the "Firebird stole Camaro's money" crap....booo freaking hoo. Lets not forget, Pontiac (when they had decent product), sold a ton of cars. Firebird was Pontiac's performance flagship, and Pontiac's product planners made sure the it got the funds it needed for the different noses and what not because of what it meant to the brand (Firebird had Bob Kraut as brand manager untill a year or two before the end). The F-body was not an all Chevy show. However, since the whole F-body program was bundled under team Corvette headed by Dave Hill (not really a person who wanted a better Camaro if you get my drift)...it is obviious that Camaro was not as important to Chevy as the Firebird was to Pontiac. Scott and others pushed several things through...but in general Pontiac wanted more done with Firebird than Chevy did. Seriously...do you think GM would let a low volume Pontiac eat up funds of a higher volume Chevy unless Chevy had another motive at the time (i.e. the car with crossed flags on the hood). Firebird didn't steal any money from the Camaro....it was more a case of Pontiac wanting the Firebird to be more than Chevrolet wanted the Camaro to be (at that point).

#2- If done right (think Grand Prix to Impala)...a reskin can be very sucessful. However you have to be willing to give Pontiac the ability to be the "total performance" car of the group and have things the Camaro will not.

I know that notion will ruffle the feathers of some Chevy ***huggers, however if your performance division can't have a better performing car than a Chevy...why even have it?

 

Please do. All my posts are memorialized here forever. Anyone can feel free to peruse them. I don't know what the big deal is.


Remember Bob said this too. Or maybe this was not true?

Like I said, work has been stopped on the GTO for over a year.

 

Well, there are enought predictions here that somone is bound to be right!!

Should be interesting how this turns out. The information and thinking you both provide is, without a doubt, very well regarded here.

 

People are talking about how a "reskinned" Pontiac won't be succesful/

Well here's a couple of Successful "reskinned" Pontiac that are or were very successful.

The Pontiac Firebird - "reskinned" Camaro - successful for nearly 35 yrs.

The Pontiac Sunbird/Sunfire - "reskinned" Cavalier - successful for nearly 20 years.

The Pontiac Grand Prix - "reskinned" W-body - successful for nearly 18 yrs.

The Trans Sport/Montana - "reskinned" minivan - successful for nearly 15 yrs.

The point is majority of Pontiac's line thru the 1990's was reskins.

And it all depends on how distinctive the "reskin" is from Chevy, Buick or Saturn models, as to how successful the model will be.

 

Interesting as to how opinions form based on who you talk to......

A couple of things.....

(and I'll admit I stopped reading after the first page....)


>Saturn Sky was not done with little investment......far from it. nearly everything the eye sees in the interior and sheetmetal is new and different from the Solstice......that's quite an investment.

>Lutz was not the 'rogue' so to speak with the Camaro......there have been a host of people all along that wanted to bring the Camaro back.....esp. after Zarella left......however there were issues surrounding the plant. -- we all know that now -- plus two other issues that no one talks about........the good news is Lutz is the chairman over the product planning committee......

>Don't think for one moment that something isn't in the works for Pontiac...that's all I'm gonna say about that......

>With the situation GM (and Ford) find themselves in, no one wants to talk about "intro" dates. It's bad enough that both companies are losing serious money.......but the REAL nightmare is Delphi. If Delphi Strikes, kiss a lot of companies goodbye........it's THAT serious. And....did anyone happen to notice that Dana just went chapter 11? First Collins and Aikman -- then Delphi...plus a lot of other smaller suppliers.........does anyone see a trend here?????? Does this not scare the hell outta you as an American or Canadian??? If it doesn't you'd better wake up quickly.......the ramifications of these companies going Chapter 11 WILL affect you.

 

As I said, to anyone who's doubting what Pontiac will or won't do, and when it will or won't be done, wild speculation that a Chairman of General Motors who actually controls product has to resort to some silly "bullying game" to get cars produced, or what's "opinion" or not, be sure to repost this thread after additional info comes out later this year.......

As I've always said, If someone isn't actually involved in a particular project, take the information with a grain of salt!

People working on an Impala and Camaro body structure aren't working on derived model off that structure for Pontiac and Buick.

Again, this is a post as blunt and direct as you can get.


Delphi as we know it is dead. On one side, we have executives that have given themselves some serious pay and bonuses, regardless as to the condition of the company, and on the other side, there's a union that's being forced to accept more than a 60% pay cut.

Management is betting that workers won't risk their jobs and will accept the cuts without compromise. The union is betting that GM or some other entity will force Delphi to compromise because the results of a strike will be catostrophic.

The way I see it, if the union calls a strike, the UAW as we know it is done.

The Congress (regardless as to what the Prez says) is going to be forced to create loan gaurantees for GM because the ripple effect throughout the economy will be enough to cause an instant recession (in the late 90s, a GM "dip" caused the economy to "dip"). The drop in the economy will cause the value of the dollar to drop. China and other countries who have been bankrolling the national debt by purchasing US bonds and securities will cash in (basically collasping the dollar and the economy with it) because their holdings value will plummet unless the US raises rates to discourage dumping dollars, which in turn will raise intrest rates, which in turn will cool purchases, which in turn create layoffs, which in turn decreases purchases, which in turn....

Although the intensity is impossible to predict, and I know I'm laying out a worse case scenario, even if only a very very mild version of this happens, it WILL affect all of us. A new Camaro would then be the least of our worries.

 

Guy, I know you're directing this at me. Why are you getting so hysterical about this whole thing?

It's obvious that something is coming from Pontiac, which Lutz is trying to create some excitement for. There's no argument there.

So what's the problem? That I don't agree on every detail with you? So what. Let it go man.

 

Consider me nothing more than a casual observer, so maybe I might sound like I'm cluelessly rambling. And maybe I am.

There are only one of two ways this whole Delphi thing can possibly go.

1) Either, everyone's going to get along, get focused, get cooperative and maybe....just maybe...GM's stash of cash will last long enough for good things to happen....once all these great products come online. This is the good scenario.

Or...

2) Delphi strikes. If that happens, critical components won't be available to manufacture vehicles, even new hot ones like GMT900. Assembly lines will stop. Other suppliers will go out of business. GM loses the ability to create cash flow. It will be messy and painful. The only option at that terrible point is Chapter 11 for GM. What a train wreck! But.....after that, GM is free to re-negotiate most contracts. Excessive labor costs could fixed. Legacy costs as well. People will be WILLING to lend money to GM at better rates. More flexibility regarding dealer contracts. What if a Division or two were spun off into a newly created company? Ford would be forced into Chapter 11 as well, both because it's supplier chain is disrupted, and because it won't be able to compete with a now bankruptcy protected GM. Not saying that's what I'd like to see.....but any and all of that could...no...would happen.

It would be a horrible and painful cascade that would probably require a government funded bailout. After that, chances are that GM and Ford would become leaner, profitable, competitive companies though.

Personally, I hope they go with the first scenario.

 

Really, really painful if GM dumps the pension plan on the PBGC. Countless dollars in purchasing power and tax revenue will suddenly dry up! Not to mention the personal tragedies of the families effected. No one will win in that scenario. It would definitley impact everyone in the U.S. in one way or another.

I'm hoping beyond hope that the parties involved will see throught their differences and come to grips with the situation.

 

Not getting hysterical Charlie.

Unfortunately, when typing in the exact way you joke and kid, it sometimes comes out mean or hysterical. This isn't my intention. If it came across as harsh or anything, I apologize. Most certainly wasn't meant that way.

Also, sitting on very direct stuff, I don't have the "war tested" mentality of Fbod or some of the other guys inside when there's something posted that you know is opposite to what's hapening. I have a tendancy not to walk away and say "whatever" as they do. Something I gotta learn.

I'll keep this in check in the future, and simply sit back & let surprises come.

 

You better not!

 

We're cool.