A cage match? You guys....



I'm walking a fine line here, and I most certainly don't want to burn bridges. So this is about as far as I go here. You decide if I'm offering an "opinion" or not.


1. It takes a number of years to create a car. Which sounds more plausable:

a) GM doesn't know what it's going to be producing between now and 2009 (2010 model year), a mere 36 months away? Or...

b) GM knows perfectly well what it's going to do, but because it's doing this different ways at a faster pace, typical sources think GM's confused and in disarray?


2. Would Bob Lutz, The Product Chairman of General Motors, the person who controls project pursestrings, the person who sets project priorities, the person who decides which vehicles move up to the final stage: "The General Motors Product Planning Comittee", the guy whose job it is to co-ordinate all GM's worldwide divisions (including Australia) so that the most is gained from limited financial, manpower, and manufacturing resources, actually not know which projects are moving ahead since he's the final hurdle before final product approval?


3. Would Bob Lutz have his current job tomorrow if he rammed anthing down the throats of the people who gave him his job, GM's board of directors?


4. Are "sources" more knowledgeable than the Product Chairman of General Motors, members of the RWD program both at GM-NA and Holden, and people who have sat in on product meetings?


5. What's more plausable:

a) GM took design ideas from last year's Zeta plans, adapted them to the identically sized and hardpoint Chevy-Zeta, and is sitting pretty till the chassis is at a point where they'll get involved again (ie: cooling and suspension tuning, machining tooling or programing...), or....

b) GM is starting over from ground zero, has absolutely, positively, NO plans whatsoever on the books or in the pipeline for Pontiac, and is simply going to leave Pontiac to flounder and fall even farther (while bleeding more cash) with a double void in it's product line for another 5 plus years, while simply ignoring the new RWD chassis that is going through the pipeline.


6. Saturn Sky is a reskinned version of the Solstice. It was done with little of no budget, done in a matter of months, and is coming out a mere months behind Solstice's introduction. Being that a Pontiac sedan or GTO is likely to be reskinned version of another car & will have far more resources devoted to it, how much time is it going take to do a "Sky" on a much needed sedan & coupe?



Bottom line is this, there is alot more going on and is prestaged than is let on. Once hardpoints are set, there's very little that a division needs to do outside of draw up some design proposals while the lead division does development work, and wait till it's time to get their versions approved, and order stamping (or nowadays, program stamping machines).

One year ago, GM delayed a line of RWD cars that was set for production for 2008. Shortly thereafter, Bob Lutz froze spending for a number of months on this same program. During this time, GM "re-thought" their RWD program.

The only "Re-thinking" going on now is that GM is leaning towards hedging their bets on replacing the high volume "W" cars with RWD cars that some in the northeast might have issues with. The question is "Should these RWD cars replace the FWD models, or should we keep the FWD cars and position the RWD models above them?".

One idea being considered is moving all "W" cars to Osh#1, while setting up #2 for the RWD sedans. Then phasing out #1 .

A Pontiac coupe (what I'm calling it from now on) will likely be made at the same place Camaro is... and is likely to be the same size.


There IS a GTO already drawn up. Chevy's sedan isn't going solo. It's not going to take till 2011 for these vehicles to come out.

Feel free to remember I said this.


BTW, FWIW: although there was a plan that can be described as a bit ingenious, regarding getting Camaro up to critical mass, it wasn't directed towards the Board Of Directors.... it had to do with overcoming GM's internal midlevel politics.

There have been different tactics done by Lutz since he's gotten there. Kappa he attempted to ram through, and it almost blew up in his face, he ran blocker against attempts to cheapen Cobalt's interior, he used his power as gatekeeper to send the Lecross back so designers could do the type of car they wanted, shut down just about everything under development to get additional resources to ensure the GMT900s weren't dumed down in materials and any last minute problems were nailed (which in turn helped this line get out quicker).

For Camaro (and GTO), it seems he was privy to and nurtured a long term "counterinsurgency that quietly put together a car, a plan, the finances, a plant, and so forth outside of the normal people inside GM who are supposed to be involved in the process (why I've been saying, don't go by normal sources, only go by the people with their hands actually in the pie).

But you don't "have" to listen to me..... afterall, it's only my "opinion.

 

Okay, here we go.....

So, you're saying that the people working on Camaro and "Impala" are somehow excluded from any knowledge of this super secret GTO program, which wasn't actually cancelled last year?

 

To me it sounds like he is saying that the GTO is simply a drawing right now and maybe some computer math. It is just a design that could be put onto the Camaro structure quickly and efficiently. But as of now is nothing more than an idea and a business model that is not approved.

 

I think there is alot of truth right there. There are the completed styling proposals sitting on the shelf as well.

I just hope it's not a dimensional duplicate of the Camaro.

 

Personally so do I.

 

Yup, because then essentially we'd have a Firebird called GTO - which would be stupid and a waste of resources.

 

I personally think Pontiac should take the 4 door sports coupe idea and run with it , name it a G8 oooor gasp a GTO and just get the damn to market already . Didnt GM say it wanted to work Pontiac and Buick down to 4 emotion based models ( I'd be a liar if I said I believe there ever gonna make good on that ) . If that still will ring true eventually , I dont see room for a GTO in the traditonal sense of being a large 2-door coupe .

 

I've wondered if they wouldn't just do a sedan sized coupe for the GTO. A performance package with a little more emphasis on comfort. Velite, if it existed, would be a 2 door convertible wouldn't it? There's your basis.

 

You know, the more I think about it the more I like that. I have no idea if that's the direction they'll end up going or not. I'll bet we'll know more in afew months, now that BL is apparently pushing for a new Goat in public. Those who have seen the proposal say it really looked good.

If it is as was described and comes with a manual trans and the top level is called GTO....I'd buy it....I'd buy it today!

 

It would just give some pretty cool diffrence to Pontiac . I happen to think some of the 4 door coupes coming out from mostly the luxury divisions are pretty damn sweet looking . Dare I say it should share the exact same powertrain/transmission choices as the Camaro , from the base V6 , right up the top level V8 . I just think its the most logical platform mate the Camaro could get without having clones and overlap of all the US rwd's . Let Impala gun for volume sales with a practicality , style and value , and let Buick aim at a more luxurious 300c type car .

Camaro/Pontiac 4 door coupe - SWB
Impala /Buick - LWB

I have no clue if the US still had 2 wheelbases in mind .

 

Here's a description of it from someone who's seen it. These comments were publicly posted today...

And this by the same person..

 

I liked what I read there , hopefully they choose to follow thru with it as described .

 

Although the idea of a quad-coupe is interesting, a new RWD Pontiac sedan with a variety of powerful V6 and V8 engines would be a much bigger seller and contribute much more to GM's bottom line than a quad-coupe. I would not be surprised to see the Camaro be the only Zeta coupe, with Chevrolet, Pontiac, and Buick getting sedans.

 

A Camaro (Pony Car) and a GTO (nominally a midsize car) that are essentially the same size.

What's wrong with that picture?

 

The fact that the proportions could be totally different?