Z284ever

I hope that no one here is under the impression that the "plan" will end up giving Pontiac a performance carte blanche. And that's for a couple of reasons:

1) Pontiac has simply not demonstrated that it can move these sorts of products in any great volume. See: G8, Solstice, GTO and 4th gen Firebird.
G8 and Solstice sales combined can't even match Corvette's sales numbers. Yeah, I know. Everyone on this site swears they'll buy an LS9 GTO.

2) If anyone believes that GM's two core brands, Cadillac and Chevrolet, will happily play performance second fiddle to Pontiac, well, insert clever metaphore >here<.

Pontiac's stated role, is to support Buick. Going forward, what does that mean? I don't think it means 2 ton, V8, RWD cars - assuming that Pontiac could even generate any serious volume doing that.

I think it means small, affordable, well appointed, sporty, fun-to-drive, niche-y cars. Think Mini Cooper. Think Scion. Maybe even sporty E-Flex cars.

If anyone wants Pontiac to live longer than just afew more years (when Solstice and G8 expire), time to start thinking out of the box.




Waiting for the usual suspects to pounce....................

jrp4uc

I'd be fine with that. An abbreviated Mazda lineup (perhaps a compact, roadster, midsize sedan) plus some Mini Cooper/xB subcompact--all with high character styling and sporty road manners--would be an improvement and compatible with a re-vamped Buick.

Tokuzumi

I mentioned GM doing something like Scion in a previous thread. Would be a great idea to get young buyers hooked on GM cars, assuming they step up with their "grown up" cars.

The thing GM needs to learn is marketing. I was talking about GM to my neighbors the other day, and granted, they are not in the market for a new vehicle at this time...but I asked them to name a product that Pontiac makes. They first mentioned Firebird. Then, they mentioned Le Mans. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be surprised to hear that Pontiac is still making new cars.

FUTURE_OF_GM

True that...

A friend of mine said; "What do they make again? The Grand Am, right?"



I'm a bit concerned about the gray wording of GM's commitment to Pontiac as well...

Does it mean niche as in Solstice, Alpha, G8 niche or niche as in Vibe GXP, G3 GXP and G5 GXP.

The brand has to be complimentary to Buick, which will sell the higher margin, probably bigger cars IMO.

The other question is; does 'niche brand' mean that GM wants to do just that or does it mean "We're scaling Pontiac down for an eventual, quiet and easy phase out."

Geoff Chadwick

Alpha. Oh and Alpha. Oh! Alpha. And a Beat with a 1.4L DI turbo.

"niche" = low volume. If their largest car was VE styling in something actually sized like the modern BMW 3 series, I'd be okay with that. Slap the LNF in there and it should still be plenty of a blast and get decent mpg. RWD or AWD configurations - 2 door, 4 door, 5 door.

Darth Xed

As much as it hurts to think of it that way, it's hard to argue with Z284ever's line of thinking.

If Pontiac is to be viable, it needs to be different, and I think that performance is not the route anymore... because Charlie's point of Pontiac not being able to move that type of vehicle DOES show in the recent history he provided.

So the question then becomes... what niche does Pontiac qualify to fill? I dunno if itsy bitsy cars are that answer myself...

91_z28_4me

Well Pontiac's niche has been rentals and fleets for the past few years. Perhaps it should go that route. I am actually being serious here. Consider the following:

Fleets and rentals have an appreciable volume.
Police/service fleets demonstrate durability and build loyalty to the model not the brand.
Rental sales of models create lowered residuals for leases and faster depreciation and should NOT be the mainstream brand or the luxury brand's concern.
There is NO brand designated specifically for fleets and rentals anywhere in the US (but I believe there is in the UK).

The additional volume generated by fleets would drive down costs for consumer purchased models.

Jason E

Driving my wife's Comp G home from work last night, I reflected even more on my Pontiac-loving past. With all my bitching aside, what I've felt for a long time was that Nissan and Mazda really are what Pontiac could be...more specifically, Mazda. Keep a Solstice as a halo car...give us a COMPETITIVE small offering, a COMPETITIVE midsized car, and maybe one more car?

I can see Pontiac surviving as a "niche" lineup with 4 offerings. It doesn't need a Torrent. It doesn't need a G3. It needs three to four COMPETITIVE lines. Not a bunch of lackluster crap like its had...

My dream? Give me a Solstice like what we have, with a Sky-level interior. If that's not possible, dare I say a Zeta-based Firebird or GTO? If Kappa is going away, here is a way to hop on Zeta cheap.

Add to that a more aggressive looking Cruze and call it a Grand Am, and a more aggressive Malibu with a nice hi-po V6, and call it a Grand Prix. End it there. If Saturn is going away, and Buick starts with a car the same size as a Malibu and "Grand Prix" derivative, life should be good...right???

3-4 models...I'd ideally like 3 in 2 and 4 door form, and a Firebird

rlchv70

I said it in another thread. I think it will be smaller, sporty, lower priced offerings to appease the dealers. Astra would be a good fit.

soul strife

Mazda is what Pontiac was. Pontiac wasn't all GTO's and Firebirds. I agree with you Jason, they should have 4 cars with a sporty edge and call it a day. Also, Killing the Grand Am/Grand Prix name was just murder. People knew the name and that kind of recognition is very expensive

turbo200

Two things about Ponitac's audience at this point are obvious: they are heavily price point sensitive and heavily design-motivated. the core ideal is to grow the business, with that in mind we do have to try different things than what we've had before. in all seriousness, the mainstream product have been massive failure due to severe lack of all the desirable attributes of cars in this class. gran prix missing quality and efficiency, as well as more universally good design. g6 missing quality and biggest defecit: performance. g5 is pointless, pointlessly non-aggressive, pointlessly boring, pointlessly low in quality and performance.

all the product you've mentioned in your first post were either niche, i.e not designed to appeal to buyers en masse, like solstice or the 4th gen [by virtue of its uncommodious nature] or very high priced for a pontiac, g8 and gto. i don't think these are the best tests yet for a high priced pontiac. pontiac can't even succeed all that well in the low priced market, how is the word going to get out to affluent buyers that this is a good car, when the entry level product is crap and generally unappealing. so i don't think g8 and gto situations of the recent past are great test beds. like infiniti, we must rebuild pontiac from the ground up.

to that extent, pontiac must return to its glory roots of performance and rebelion. i have a car in my sig over at C&G, it's the audi a1 sportback concept, and it's a mini competitor. it's likely coming here, but is coming out in the world next year. very very appealing. this is the first spot they should hit. i''ve long been talking about a gamma sport coupe with real performance. the benchmark should be the acura rsx type-s. meet that car in refinement and appointments, and you will remake the brand Pontiac as a whole.

next up is alpha. this is relatively simple. pontiac's last big hit was the grand am. yes we can talk about fleet sales in its sunset years, but like many GM product it was allowed to languish in its final years on the market with no real update to engineering or cosmetically. for shame. a compact sedan that can reasonably seat 4, think current 3-series, priced to start at $20k. this will not be overlap with malibu because it will actually be smaller [at the very least on outside, next malibu was supposed to grow in total interior volume]. a convertible, hatch [maxx shaped but desirably styled], and wagon should follow this model. the coupe should be the hotted up firebird model, perhaps styled after the holden coupe 60 [reminiscent of the last 3-series]

finally the pinaccle should be simple. epsilon long wheelbase with real performance 5 door hatch. shaped like the new 4 door coupes but with more dramatically sloping rear end, this will satiate many gran pprix buyers in the mainstream who want sporty looks with their familys edan, they can have thier cake and eat it too. every Pontiac should be engineered to performance perfection. Opel has a great base with the Insignia hatch that should be the starting point here. this is to satisfy those that feel Pontiac needs a business case, more volume to stay in business. i do think a RWD sedan would work in place of this, but G8 has been a poor test case, it's high priced in the V6 edition, it's poorly supported, there are not many, most people don't know what it is, and it's been released in a bad climate [first high gas prices, now enconomic storm]

finally the real pinaccle should be a GTO/chevelle/monte like vehicle. not too large, perhaps camaro is large enough here. should be shaped more traditionally and less fiery, more like the first GTOs. the gentleman's sports coupe. this will be the high end, and can come maybe half a decade to a decade after the rebuilding is showing signs of strength.

that's all Pontiac needs, that's all they should be.

turbo200

Gran Prix and Grand Am as names should come back. on truly desirable product.

here's the a1 sportback concept perfect as a small car Gamma concept to compete with entries like Mini, GTI, upcoming Nissan 240sx


this is actually very small, smaller than it looks.

HuJass

Save the Solstice and the G8. Ditch the rest.
Give us a G8 coupe and a Firebird.
That's a start.

If possible or needed in the future, then add an Alpha car and possibly a rebadged Statesman large sport sedan.

Jason E

The bottom line is that the crossovers show what's wrong with GM. We don't need a Traverse, Acadia, Enclave and Outlook. That's asinine. I'm ALL FOR dumping Saturn. It has the least number of dealers, and has soaked up far more money than any division save for Chevy...which sells way, way more.

People forget, Pontiac's success as late as '02 or so was on selling SPORTY CHEVYS. Not just GTOs and Firebirds. The current Impala and Malibu shows how Pontiac is STILL VIABLE, IMO. Both are great cars...but bland as to appeal to the mass majority.

Now, if Saturn is axed, what happens? We're down to 3 crossovers...and need 2. I'd say Acadia should die as well, because the Buick is sitting right there. Astra is gone...a new Cruze and "Grand Am" is perfect...no more models needed down low. Aura is gone (or does it become a Buick???), which leaves the phenomenal Malibu...and the possibility for a more aggressive Grand Prix.

And finally, the halo car. Sky is gone, so leave Solstice. If Kappa isn't worth it, give Camaro a platform mate Hard to make it more aggressive than the Camaro, but lets face it...we all know it CAN go upscale...maybe standard V8 engine? More futuristic look?

The tools are in the toolbox, if GM can use them right. There's a legion of current Pontiac owners that would love this idea, I firmly believe. Don't waste my time with RWD sedan chassis and screw with crossovers. I believe Pontiac COULD HAVE STAYED A FULL LINE...but we're past that now. GM doesn't have the money, and screwed Pontiac too hard for too long. Now? Give it 3-4 cars and some design creativity...and let it fly. Seriously.

This really, really could work. I'd personally LOVE to replace our Comp G in a few years with a car with the quality and attention to detail of a Malibu...but that looked plain nasty. A DI 3.6, maybe AWD? I'd be all over that Modern day Grand Prix.

Get the CAW to lift the asinine restrictions on nameplates, and LET PONTIAC HAVE THEIR NAMES BACK.

Robert_Nashville

As someone who grew up a "Pontiac" guy in a "Pontiac" family; my question would be...

What can Pontiac offer that is truly more desirable/different/better/more exciting with a "Pontiac" badge on it that couldn't be offered just as well under any other GM nameplate?