Robert_Nashville

We probably aren't all that far apart on this but I'm not sure that you are getting what I'm trying to get across.

My overall point is that General Motors is the car company here…meaning that it doesn’t truly need any specific/certain nameplates (it could change all it’s nameplates to “GM” and if it wanted to do so or it could have two-dozen and it doesn’t really matter…they are just nameplates (it’s only “history”; mostly in the form of nostalgia) that keep people thinking otherwise.

I do understand that there are intrinsic values to names like “Cadillac” and “Pontiac” and I’m not suggesting those values be overlooked; I’m just tying to point out that, at least in my humble opinion, the only reason to have multiple nameplates owned by the same multi-national company is if there are true differences between those nameplates/models.

That’s why, if Pontiac or a Saturn is going to stick around; they have to have some truly unique models/place in GM’s lineup that justify their being around.

Malice 1

I have heard some good ideas in this thread, and some wishy washy ones. If I were king of pontiac, I would live by a simple rule: Make the FASTEST car feasible for every segment up to $40,000.

Sub compact: I-4Turbocharged high 14 sec G3, but less ghey looking
compact: Bigger I-4 turbocharged high 13 sec G5, or cobalt SS equivalent with awsome tuner styling.
Midsize: 300+hp V6 mid 13 sec coupe/sedan. Bodykit, Halos, etc... required
fullsize: 12 sec stock G8 coupe/sedan.
sport coupe: mid 12 sec GTO or TA equivalent.

No need to compete with corvettes, Mercedes, etc... Every time a competitor came out with a faster car in segment, Poncho should replace the cam, change the PCM tune, or up the boost to keep thier crown of best 0-60 and best 1/4mile time of the segment.

HuJass

I think I agree with Robert on this one. If Pontiacs can't be SIGNIFICANTLY different from the other brands, then why do you need them?
If GM says they can't be radically different or are unwilling to make them that way, then just put them out of their misery.

In my mind, Pontiac would HAVE to offer a type of car not available at ANY of the other divisions. Not even close. (Except for the Firebird )

I still envision Pontiac as a RWD performance division. Great driving dynamics, high style, excellent power for whatever market the supposed models plan to play in.

Geoff Chadwick

No, Buick does not. Chevrolet does.

That is true.

Pontiac and Buick both have brand identity (or rather, they need it bad). BMW doesnt make a cheap car. They dont want to or need to. Buick offers more than a Chevy in luxury. Pontiac would offer more than a Chevy in performance. GMC offers more than a Chevy truck. You have the volume dealer (chevy) and the premium dealer (b/p/g).

I know you're not. I just know GM will start with the initial re-badge effort to get the ground running. Then, as they have so many times before, they wont stop. They'll just keep on badge engineering. It cant be excused anymore. They need to make every car distinct enough that nobody could ever say "well, they could just drop that".

That wasnt good for the Fcar from 93-02 and it isnt good now. Not to mention GM is strapped for cash and is totally insolvent. Burning design dollars to fill out a dealer's offerings is design dollars they just dont have.

Pointiac also cant fight Sion. Heck. GM cant fight Sion. They have razor thin profit margins, and a parent company that makes profitable cars like GM makes profitable trucks. GM will loose. GM needs to pick its battles *very* carefully.

Maybe it means Buick/Pontiac/GMC dont have a car for sale under $20k. Maybe. Sales might continue to decline till they stabilize at a lower level - but we cant maintain the sales rates of the past 5 years anyway. Either way though, atleast both brands would have a soul again.

the only problem is dealing with CAFE. For that alone, I will excuse a few "smaller" cars. But again - a version of the Aveo (or similar) better have like 160hp and a turbo and handle like a Mini. It can be expensive and still get good fuel economy.

ehaase

Pontiac Custom S on C&G says Pontiac's niche will be G3, G5, and Vibe.

HuJass

You're close, but Pontiac doesn't need ANY FWD vehicles. Leave them to Chevy and Buick.

That doesn't mean they couldn't build small, 4 cyl, RWD, performance minded sub-compacts and compacts. Maybe the replacement architecture for the Kappa could be designed to be more flexible, so that they could build the Solstice, a compact, and a sub-compact car from the same structure.

Midsize RWD could be Alpha based.

Fullsize exists with the G8. Just add a G8 coupe. Ditch the ST. I don't think that thing will sell in large numbers here.

And if they see fit, then bring the Statesman over as a larger performance sedan.

HuJass

If that's the case, just kill 'em now.

Z284ever

I think some of you guys are not getting Pontiac's role now. It will offer entry level cars in the BPG channel.

turbo200

since BPG is the premium division, and Chevy is the volume division, and the goal is to reduce overlap, a well managed GM would use Pontiac as a way to offer premium entry level cars. so my plan would be the way to go. i'm at an anger boiling point here, because the gamma subcompact makes so much sense and is not something that could automatically play a role at any other division, it just fits in best with Pontiac's brand language. and this is where GM has mismanaged divisions and not understood the trends the market is taking, by not making those calls themselves. they really don't deserve taxpayer money if all they're going to do is throw cruze and corsa rebadges at Pontiac [unless that is those rebadges are not at all rebadges and are actual unique product on the respective platforms]. since buick is the premium car in between chevy and cadillac, it makes sense for Pontiac to be slightly premium but with a focus on performance and aggressive styling. it's pretty simple, y'all

turbo200

with thier hand held out and thier if you don't fix it for us we're gonna let it all go down to hell attitude, GM is really pissing me off. it's as if they're telling the American people, sorry you're screwed you have to fix us, no way out of it. they're the ones who screwed up yet they have yet to eat the gigantic slice of humble pie we're all expecting them to take.

[having not yet read the plan, i'm directing my comments at some initial reporting that shows little in the way of improving the actual business model, the one where profit-per-unit is the most important thing. since this is thier biggest problem, my anger and impatience towards them at the moment is pretty sky high.]

and we should just let them die.

flowmotion

QFT.

A lot of people around here like to pontificate on Pontiac's "potential". But unless you can find a few billion dollars and five years of solvency, it's irrelevant at this point. GM has officially told the government that Pontiac is not important.

rlchv70

You guys need to look at this from the DEALER's perspective. Maybe they really don't NEED lower cost, entry level offerings, but they STRONGLY want some. That's how we ended up with the G3 and G5. Here are a couple of scenarios:

A middle-aged, upper middle class man comes in to the dealership to buy his new Buick. While wrapping up the sale, he mentions that he also wants to get a new car for his daughter that is going off to college. He wants something safe and reliable with a warranty, but cheap. The only thing the salesman can say is, "how about a slightly used car?". Chances are that the buyer wouldn't be interested.

Alternatively, a young college graduate comes in to the showroom to look at the GMC trucks. He really can't afford one, and is just kinda dreaming. The salesman approaches him and strikes up a conversation. The college grad lets him know that he needs a new car, and really wants a new truck, but his practical side is telling him to buy a new small car. Again, the only thing the dealer might be able to offer him is a slightly used car, which he probably won't be interested in.

You also have to take into consideration that GM has no money to invest in all-new cars or significanly redesigned cars for Pontiac. It is much much cheaper to put a new fascia on a few Chevy's to fill out the BPG lineup.

Jason E

Then what do we make of LaNeve's comment that Pontiac will be about a "performance niche," as "Corvette is to Chevy?"

That doesn't equal G3, G5 and Vibe...

shadydavy 95 TA

Entry level in the BPG channel...but upscale from Chevy, and a performance niche.

That leaves G6 GXP for people who want something wilder than a Malibu. And G8. And Solstice till kappa dies. MAYBE a wilder Cobalt SS.

OR

It leaves G8 and various other Holden (like the Ute, which is very much a niche car/truck/whatever) products that are too racy for the Buick crowd. But they fill the performance niche and allow the BPG channel to sell to buyers other than people over 60and the GMC faithful.

Z284ever

I don't know Jason. Maybe he's just putting a pretty face on things. Solstice has a couple of more years left before it's discontinued. G8? Who knows. 1,100 sold units per month with a 9 month unsold supply, can't spell lots of security for it.

I think it's unrealistic to hope that Pontiac returns to what it was in the '60's and '70's. Pontiac will be a purveyor of affordable, fuel efficient cars. The only question here, is if these will be mundane or not. And this is just my personal opinion - but Pontiac better have something that catches fire with the consumer over the next 2-3 years. If not, it'll be all too easy to just finish killing it.