That's odd, because the feeling I always got from Saturn is that they were supposed to be the "quirky" alternative to Chevy, not necessarily "above" Chevy.

Saturn is not going to be missed as some "high quality transportation" division at GM -- and it NEVER had a performance rep.

 

Maybe in some abstract marketing sense, but on the bottom line, the cars were always priced and equipped very similarly.

 

I agree to an extent.

But think about it in terms of someone who has never considered a domestic car or someone who would buy an import over a domestic (These are the people GM is going to have to win over) Saturn was supposed to be the great "answer" to the imports... Finally, "an american car that is AS GOOD as the imports"

In that respect, and to that crowd, Saturn was very much a premium division to a "lowly" Chevrolet.

Saturn had the demographics that GM so desperately wanted and needed. I was VERY shocked that GM let the division go so easily (although, I think that GM is quietly trying to keep some control through the deal with Penske) In fact, if things kept going the way they were and GM didn't start doing something miraculous with Chevrolet, I *could have* seen Saturn eventually threatening it as GM's volume division (way down the line) Just MHO, though. Then again, when Saturn was essentially killed and integrated as 'just another GM division' I think they might've inherited the traditional 'GM baggage'.

But I also see what you're saying. IMO, Chevrolet was always above Saturn. Before Saturn became Oldsmobile.

 

No, I haven't bought a "new" car since '02. Since '05 I haven't been in a position to afford another 1. BUT, BOTH of my new cars, & most of my used, have been Pontiacs. If I were in the market for a new car right now, regardless of niche, it would be a Pontiac. A G6 coupe with the optional rear spoiler is a damn site better looking to me than the Malibu just for 1 example. But, since I can't afford a new car, then my opinion, which is all it is & has NO ability to influence G.M.'s decision makers, is even more worthless than usual. BUT, if the day ever comes again when I can afford a new car, unless Chevy's styling improves noticeably, there just won't be anything there for me. I'll probably just keep buying used Pontiac's until I can't find them anymore.

 

On sober second thought, since 2004 it really hasn't been Pontiac that really impressed me and made me want to buy another Pontiac it was Holden. First, the GTO which I couldn't get since it was illegal to own one in Canada and now the G8, which came to market too late for me so I got the GP instead. Moving forward, when the time comes to replacethe GP, GTOs are now legal in Canada and there will be used G8s - maybe not manyof each, but they'll be there.... assuming that GMNA doesn't find a way to get the Commodore here again.

 

Add me to the list of people who very strongly agree with your assesment.

Without Saturn and Pontiac, there is alot of room for GM to amp up Chevrolet's style (and class?) before it reaches Buick and Cadillac levels.

Again, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

The "W" Monte Carlo SS may not have been everyone's cup of tea, but it was still a tire smoking, 2 door V8 that went at least as quickly as an LT1 and had a top speed of at least 155 mph (a deep dark secret of the last Monte Carlo SS).

It's well known that the Cobalt SS could tear up Nurbring. What isn't as well known is that the Cobalt SS could be had in stealth mode as a sedan with no "boy racer" parts, looking like a utility car with SS wheels.

Again, not 1 but 3 levels of Corvette, including a supercharged version with well in excess of 500 horsepower and a top speed of over 200.

The Trailblazer SS is no joke.

The Impala SS doesn't look like much, but was quicker than the Charger Daytona (at least till the new "Hemi 2" came out this year).

Then there's the attention Camaro is getting. If even ranked a USAToday article this past week.

I see more Chevrolet performance books and magazines at the local Barnes and Noble than Pontiac by a factor of something like 8-10 to 1.

GM's V8 engines are still refered to as Chevrolet (not Pontiac) small blocks in gearhead circles.

Not sure what lost ground Chevrolet needs to make up, but it certainly isn't lost ground regarding Pontiac.

For starters, because there will soon be no Pontiac or Saturn showrooms.

Even you MUST know the following (although you obviously do not accept it):

1. We're talking about "Performance image", not marketing position of what's above one brand or another. Buick is above Chevrolet. Mercury is above Chevrolet. But I wouldn't exactly say they have a gold standard performage image.

2. Chevrolet buyers have always been more "youthful" than Pontiac. Check the demographics, and look at model by model comparisons. In Pontiac's best days, it was a "step up" brand both in median age and in price.

3. Volume matters as much as history. You correctly state the importance of marketing and emotion playing a role in enthusiasts' feeling about a brand, but you convienently ignore that the legions of Chevrolet performance fans far and away outstrip the number of Pontiac performance fans.

4. Dodge has the highest concentration of male buyers of any vehicle nameplate in the United States. Even the glorified station wagon called Magnum had a male buyer percentage that edged out Camaro. All no doubt because of Dodge's red meat performage image. Pontiac, on the other hand, has the highest percentage of female buyers of any brand (including imports) sold in the United States. It has been that way for at least a decade.

5. Pontiac also sold a higher percentage of it's cars to rental and fleet buyers than any other GM division. While Buick has traditionally had one of the highest buyer loyalties of any car maker (let alone, GM), Pontiac has become a fleet division.

Sure, Pontiac managed to squeeze a few dozen grand GXP Grand Prixs, GTOs, and G8 GTs within the few plus million Pontiacs churned out over the past decade or so (all of which are highly capable cars), the bottom line is that next to Chevrolet, Pontiac pales. NOT because of hardware (Pontiac tends to get better than Chevrolet), but the question was "Performance IMAGE.


I understand that the GTO trumps the Monte Carlo SS, and the G8 stomps the Impala. But the entry level Corvette has it all over the Solstice, and there's 2 more levels above that. The G5 never got Cobalt SS' engine. In the closing days of the 4th gen, the percentage of Firebirds that were sold with a V8 stomped the already high take rates on the Camaro. Most all of those Firebirds were WS6 Ram Air Trans Ams. But there were still more Camaros sold.

I'll admit that Pontiac fans are far more rabid than Chevrolet fans. But outside the small circle of die-hard Pontiac fans, there's plenty of evidence that Chevrolet has a bigger performance image than Pontiac.

Keep in mind I'm a huge GTO fan, I think the G8 is the best sedan made by any US based car company, I like the Solstic coupe, and if I were to buy a mint condition old car, it would be a late 70s Trans Am T/A 6.6 so don't think for a moment I'm anti-Pontiac.

 

All of those points are valid points. But I think you're still looking at things from a "GM perspective, not someone who is totally new to the corporation. (You know, the people we NEED to sell cars to)

Time will tell, I guess. *shrugs* I certainly hope YOU are right and I'm wrong, for the sake of GM and performance at GM.

 

In order for Chevy to be a success it needs to be aimed squarly at Toyota. When you are taking on Toyota you are basically means you have to make emotionless appliances with styling that says you "tried....but also walked the line to not offend anyone". There is not one thing in the current Toyota brand lineup that is exciting or expesssive, outside of maybe the FJ. In fact, they make due without a Camry Coupe now (just cancelled the Solara), so why does Malibu need one? I don't think two door, or 4 door matters much now honestly. I mean if someone gave you a choice between a Camary Solara, or Accord or Mazda6 sedan, what would you choose?

My point really is that Chevy has to be this massive everyman's umbrella that makes a car almost anyone could could want, or buy. The whole idea of Pontiac for the last 30 years has been that they were cars for people who wanted something "more expressive" than a Chevrolet and are willing to pay a slight premium for it. So..you can't just cancel Pontiac...say "we'll make Chevy's a little more angry" and expect to recapture those buyers. Camaro, and Corvette are about as aggressive, and performance oriented as Chevy can get...and they also will be among the lowest volume Chevy's you can buy.

Either I can't see a scenerio where GM...who has it's eyes clearly locked on Toyota takes Chevy in any kind of aggressive or performance direction. Not in this political climate...not in a company run by beancouters who have been steam roled by Lutz for 6-7 years and can now have the attitude of "We tried it your way and ended up bankrupt". I really don't think GM is counting on getting Pontiac's sales volume back..or even trying to. I am sure if you had access to the internal GM marketing data, you will see Pontiac's core buyers have been peeling off to Mazda and Nissan the last 5-6 years anyway.

 

I don't think Chevy needs to be a performance division or have a performance image different than what it is today. Chevy needs to be Chevy. Good cars, a few performance models or trim levels that you can get on cars.


You can argue all day about what Pontiac was 70 years ago. It isn't that today. Pontiac sold the most fleet vehicles, which means a good portion of Pontiac's volume doesn't need to be recovered.


Like it has already been said, Pontiac and Saturn being gone allows Chevy to have more room in the market. GM doesn't need every Saturn or Pontiac buyer to go get a Chevy, nor do they expect them too. Some will come over. GM won't die because it lost Pontiac's retail volume, or Saturn's. When Chevy has better products, more people will buy Chevys.

 

I'm not sure about that. There's an ancient expression that applies here, "don't try to out-toyota toyota". OK, maybe the toyota part is new, but the message is the same. Sometimes your competitor is better at you than something, and trying to beat them at their strength is a waste of your time and a sure path to defeat.

Toyota makes great appliance cars because thay have the perfect reliability and resale price reputations to do so. People don't buy camry's because it was the least offensive car they could find. They buy them because they know they will NEVER break down, and it will be worth more money in 3 years than an accord.

To win sales from those people, you have to offer them something different that makes them want to take a chance. Price can be a factor, although it is also a consistent anchor on resale values.

I agree with a lot of that too. The malibu has an awesome interior in it, but if i needed a sedan, it's just too lame on the outside to even consider. The cobalt SS is an awesome performance value, but again, the exterior kills it. If i needed a new DD, I'd buy a mazda 6 / 3 over either of those vehicles without even test driving the chevies. Of course, a G8 or a G5 with the SS guts could have entered that equation if they existed (anymore in the case of G8)

 

Interesting on the second part;.... I think Malibu is probably the best looking car in it's class out there.

I think it looks very upscale for it's pricepoint, and even today, with them being all over the road, a nice, clean Malibu still will catch my eye.

The main drawback for me is the size... too small for me.... assuming I'd be OK with the FWD as well.

 

What surpises me about the Malibu is how long it is. I have never sat in one..but it seems really long for it's class.

 

Someone in our family has a 2009... It is an LS model.

It is actually suprisingly big for what I expected, it's just that I like my cars bigger, I guess.

 

Well, taking the view of someone new to the corperation, you probably already know what a Corvette is, you probably loose bladder control each time you see a orange or yellow 2010 Camaro SS on the street, and you likely know someone who has an newer SS.. most likely a Cobalt or Impala.

Nosing around Pontiac showrooms, you'd notice the great looking G8 and the Solstice. Both exceptional cars, and both of them class leaders. But despite that, Chevrolet would still in their mind have a bigger performance image.


Pontiac's best hope IMO, and you touched on it, was winning over new people to GM. That means import buyers.

Everyone already knows what Chevrolet is. Chevrolet already has a core group of buyers. Outside of the automotive sales collaspse, Chevrolet has always sold volume. Nothing wrong with Chevrolet that better quality won't solve.

But it was Pontiac that had the greatest potential to bring in new buyers. Lutz's original idea of Kappa (a small, 4 cylinder based, RWD architecture that could spawn everything from sports cars to small sedans) and the initial plan of a Zeta sedan and coupe, along with simply following through on plans with the G6 (which included an AWD version as well as turbo V6 engine in the lineup), with the Vibe and what became the G5 to round it off would had made Pontiac one hell of a division, and unlike anything else available here in the US.

But because GM simply didn't have the money, and was having a bear of a time getting it, had a product development method that was extremely self destructive, and Bob Lutz apparently was neutered from what he was when he first got to GM (for whatever reason or cause), none of this happened and Pontaic lost it's chance for a revival and GM lost it's chance for both increasing market share and potentially additional income that might have prevented it's current situation.


Like I said, I'm a big fan of Pontiac, and I'm still shaking my head at GM killing off it's 2nd biggest division in favor of a brand that combined doesn't sell what a single line of G6s sold.. But with the exception of a scattered few cars, Pontiac's performance image... or offering a compelling lineup of cars... has been lacking for most all of this decade.

It's painfully obvious that when those great ideas for Pontiac this decade were killed or reduced, there was nothing to fill in.

The Chevrolet Malibu is 191.8" long.



The Honda Accord is 194.1" long.

The Ford Fusion is 190.2" long.

The Dodge Avenger is 190.9"

Both the Nissan Altima and the Toyota Camry are 189.2 & 189.8" long respectively.

The Accord based Acura TL is 195.3" long.

Save the Honda cars, they all fall to within the range of the width of 2 thumbs.


The Malibu is one of the skinniest cars in it's class.... It's only 70" wide (barely wider than a Volkswagen Golf!).

By comparison, the Fusion, Camry, Avenger, Sonata, Altima, are all about 72" wide and the Accord is nearly 73" wide.

An illusion, perhaps?

 

The accord, camry and malibu are all equally dead to me, the fusion is slightly better looking, the G6 is better looking outside but way too dated inside.

I'd buy a mazda 6 without even test driving any of the above if the G8 was gone and i needed a sedan.