what i dont understand is that the cafe fines for a vehicle like the potential impala, getting lets say 25mpg instead of 35, would be like $500, why doesnt GM just add that in as a guzzler charge and call it a day

 

All excellent points!

 

Who says "omg high volume" needs to be associated with Chevy. A RWD Chevy Caprice or Impala of decent size might be a GREAT mid volume car. Call me stupid, but a cheaper RWD car than the G8 does have a home.

Caprice? How many units of those used to go to police sales? And now that the Crown Victoria is so out-dated couldnt GM steal more of those sales for highway patrols?

1996 Impala SS? Base it off a Caprice, and the nutjobs that want one will buy it. It might be limited and expensive, but its a unique vehicle.

And then what about a hybrid G8? Doesnt sound quite right to me. A rwd Chevy hybrid caprice (as a marketing tool) feels more normal.

50k a year would still probably do a bit of good for reducing Zeta's cost.

As was said, there is certainly more than CAFE at work here.

 

Thing is, if the RWD Chevy is completely killed off and not simply given another name, then it's probally a safe bet that the RWD's design will end up on the FWD's body since both are about the same size.


I don't see anything here to disagree with, Jack.

CAFE is based on fleet averages, Matt. An Impala that gets 25 mpg will be fine as long as GM sells enough Cobalts, Malibus, and Saturns to counter it. There there isn't too much a threat on the car side.

The REAL problem is that those 19mpg 5.3 Chevy Tahoes are going into the mix with cars for the new CAFE standards.


You pretty much named what the case was for the RWD Chevy sedan.

Right now, GM (including Bob Lutz himself) questions everything over and over again. Lutz has the ability to be personally passionate about something, yet do the exact opposite if the only thing going for that car is passion, not numbers or if the cash can be better spent somewhere else.

For the record, I personally believe Chevrolet will have a RWD sedan by 2011MY, & I'm not quite ready to buy into the dead Chevy RWD sedan party.

Why?

Because there is too much already riding on this. Consider:

1. Camaro's whole existence is dependent on high volume Zeta.

2. Chevrolet is the lead US division regarding the US Zeta development. Buick, Pontiac, and Cadillac joined the party later.

3. Holden developed the architecture and bore the cost of it. GM-NA is essentially spending more money on buying the stampings and setting up the supply network for NA Zeta cars than they spent on developing the versions that will be sold here.

4. Holden apparently has moved on to the US sedans.

 

Lastly (and interestingly) the mpg ratings:

G8 V8 15/24 (370hp)
Impy V8 16/24 (303hp)
300C V8 15/23 (340hp)

300C V6 18/26
Impy V6 18/28

There is no huge penalty for a RWD vehicle in fuel economy. The AWD 300C only looses 1mpg on hwy.

While CAFE is a concern at some level, I strongly wonder how serious the "diesel debate" is within GM. As has been said, a V6 diesel would probably be better off RWD than FWD for torque issues and traction.

But what if you couldnt get the V6 diesel into a FWD application at all? How would a diesel model effect CAFE? How about CO2 emissions? If a RWD V6 Diesel was rated even a weak-sauced 22/32mpg, that would bring the average up.

So the V6 diesel is supposed to go into the CTS, isnt it? There should be a feeling somewhere as to what mpg itd be rated at, and I *really really really* want to know what that might be.

 

All very logical. The problem is that this seems to be more of a political issue than one of logic.

 

I agree.

You're the General Manager of Pontiac-Buick or another P-B decision maker.

Although your job is to keep sales up today, Your real job is to mentally live 3-4 years into the future since it takes that long to get a new car out.

You have a halo sports sedan, the G8. It's selling well. You got the go ahead for RWD as a replacement for the Lucerne.

You see the potential that big RWD sedans might see reduced sales around decade's end. Higher fuel costs are likely to soften demand. Because of new CAFE standards that include light trucks, GM can only sell a certain number of 6.2 liter, V8 rear drive sports sedans. The very sedans that are the lifeblood of the "Excitement Division", and are required for the "American Roadcar". But if Chevrolet sells a full sized RWD sedan, that's going to potentially cut into the number of high profit, large V8 RWD sedans you can sell. You don't have alot of high mileage Cobalts & Malibus to contribute and Chevrolet makes up well over half of all GM's sales volume.

I would think that you are going to try to undermine Chevrolet's RWD sedan.

Sure, this might not be true. But it's alot more plausible than the idea that CAFE alone is doing in the car.

Again, for the record, I personally believe the Chevy RWD sedan is still on.

 

Still too logical.

I see this as an early salvo in a higher-level war of internal corporate politics.

Hopefully, the right side will win.

 

To play devil's advocate [and that old saying is strangely appropriate ], GM is soon to release the 4th Lambda. That will make a very similar vehicle available as a Buick, GMC, Saturn, and Chevy.

Isn't GM trying to get away from badge engineering?

If Chevy has a Zeta, how does GM market it against the Pontiac and Buick Zetas?

Are we back to the Intrigue/Regal/Grand Prix/Lumina confusion?

 

They're running the SUV gravy train until it's dry, for the time being, they still make a huge profit per vehicle.

I was suprised to here the Zeta Buick would Lucerne, even if the G8 is a bit smaller, I don't know that it is, that's right next to DTS and again, replacing a decent selling FWD with a new RWD model.

 

I figure that whatever GM does, they don't want both large FWD and RWD in both Buick and Chevrolet, as that would be too much duplication.

If RWD is premium, maybe it makes more sense for Buick to have it. But then how do you position Buick against Cadillac? Soft versus sporty? What about legacy Cadillac buyers (that is people who bought pre-2003 models) who want soft, pillowy rides and like FWD? It sounds like the plan is to move them to Buick, but what if they don't want to move....

Sticky problem.

Personally, I figure that if Pontiac has cool RWD sedans, I don't need a Chevy or Buick version....might be nice, but I'm not going to cry if Chevy and Buick stay FWD.

If there's a really good looking RWD Chevy prototype, here's hoping they can stick a Pontiac badge on it if Chevy ends up going FWD.

I wonder how well great looking RWD would translate to FWD, with the extra front overhang and front window/axle overlap of FWD?

 

Indeed. I was always under the impression that you can't simply take a design from a RWD platform (Zeta) and overlay it onto, say, a W-body for instance. There are definite proportioning and engineering problems to consider.

 

That's exactly right. You can't simply take a Zeta body and drop it on an EPII chassis.

 

Not necessarily. A design on paper (or computer) isn't a finished item. Lots of things you can do with it.

The Lincoln Zephyr..er..MKZ and the upcoming MKS were initially designed before the decision was made to use front or rear drive chassis.

Also, you have a glaring example of how a design can be adapted not only for front or rear drive, but how it can be adapted for size differences..... the Dodge Charger and Dodge Avenger. The current Sebring's design is from a RWD concept from a few years ago.

In the Zeta's-to-W case (although Epsilon 2 is far more likely) 2 things. First, the exterior of a Epsilon Impala (like the current one) is very close in size to the Zeta Chevy would use (G8). Second, there's plenty of time to adapt a design theme to either chassis. One may have a few inches more overhang or be an inch or so narrower, but it's a relatively easy thing to do.

 

But I think the Sebring and Avenger don't work at all, whereas the Charger and 300 work quite well for what they were trying to do.

The Sebring and Avenger are just plain ugly, and I think a lot of that is due to the FWD proportions.

Sort of like the way the C-class and 3-series hatchbacks never quite worked, due to proportions being wrong.

Imagine the new Camaro with the hood shortened 6 inches and with an extra foot of front overhang ... if you have a strong stomach