Gmx-551
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 929
If you care about any of the following, you don't want Carl Peter Forster anywhere near product development.
-Camaro
-V8s
-RWD
-Pontiac
-Holden
-Buick
-GMC
-performance
-domestic production
-GM's resurgence in general
-Camaro
-V8s
-RWD
-Pontiac
-Holden
-Buick
-GMC
-performance
-domestic production
-GM's resurgence in general
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 213
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 374
From: Denton, Texas
thats too bad. the imp and the camaro would have been a good bowtie rwd team. i guess the large rwd sedan market is too small for the g8 and the imp with the new emission laws. gm made the right move. pontiac = rwd performance segment. chevy = main stream fuel efficent segment(excluding the camaro and the vette). hyundai is going to loose tons of money investing in the genesis. i bet that hyundai v8 will get poor gas mileage and emissions. does hyundai even have the technology to develop a fuel efficient powertrain within the next 5 years? they should stick to small 4 cylinders.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
The irony here for me is that GM wanted to base it's "little" ponycar on a fullsized sedan architecture in order to spread costs. The Zeta Impala would have been a huge cornerstone of this cost sharing strategy.
So, no sedan to share costs with - but the baggage of being based off of a two ton sedan.
So, no sedan to share costs with - but the baggage of being based off of a two ton sedan.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Then do the same with the Camaro platform (stretching the rear that is) and make it into a four-door sedan and call it something else. (Different body panels would be used of course.) Call it Caprice, or Chevelle or something new, however it would make good business sense for both platforms and help reduce production costs.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 222
setting aside the fuel economy argument for FWD, which is bogus for a number of other reasons....
somehow I must get it across to people here that Impala really doesn't sell well once you take into consideration all the facts.
-there's something like 3900 chevrolet dealers nationwide
-toyota has 1600 dealers, including lexus
-honda has even less
-impala discounts are regularly several thousands of dollars
-pound for pound, inch for inch, the cheapest car per square inch
-for the year impala will have ~140k retail sales
-honda civic will have 260k retail sales [MSRP range 17k base to 24k hybrid]
-a freakin hyundai sonata will have over 80k retail sales, a hyundai!
-pontiac G6, widely considered to be a flop, will have 90k retail sales
-volkswagen with thier "overpriced cars", fear of bankruptcy, and piddling 400 dealers, will sell 80k retail sales for Jetta [base MSRP 17k-26k]
-Buick Lucerne, a much more expensive car, with a much smaller dealer body, will have 70k retail sales
-chrysler 300 may reach 75k retail sales with a much poorer reputation than Chevy, less market penetration, and a smaller dealer body
-the camry will reach 360k retail consumers, accord will reach 310k retail consumers
SALES DATA
SALES DATA 2
Fleet sales are not all bad. they keep the factory going. that's about all they do. they help amortize the costs of a car. that's defeatist thinking. to sell to fleets, GM must heavily discount the cars. the only way they are going to make money off the platform and reengineering, refreshening costs is to give the car away?!!
retail sales to the buying public are heavily affected by fleet sales. take one visit to the forums at Edmunds.com, the biggest site for researching cars, and the biggest reason not to buy the new Malibu is resale value. Can you blame them? If they were looking at a new car as a possible investment down the road for their next down payment on a new car and money was an issue, could you wholeheartedly push them to an American car when resale value on Japanese cars is so much better.
I know I couldn't, otherwise I would be lying.
This is not the only reason I believe Impala should go RWD. I am just pointing out that calling Impala a "big success" is not a strong argument.
somehow I must get it across to people here that Impala really doesn't sell well once you take into consideration all the facts.
-there's something like 3900 chevrolet dealers nationwide
-toyota has 1600 dealers, including lexus
-honda has even less
-impala discounts are regularly several thousands of dollars
-pound for pound, inch for inch, the cheapest car per square inch
-for the year impala will have ~140k retail sales
-honda civic will have 260k retail sales [MSRP range 17k base to 24k hybrid]
-a freakin hyundai sonata will have over 80k retail sales, a hyundai!
-pontiac G6, widely considered to be a flop, will have 90k retail sales
-volkswagen with thier "overpriced cars", fear of bankruptcy, and piddling 400 dealers, will sell 80k retail sales for Jetta [base MSRP 17k-26k]
-Buick Lucerne, a much more expensive car, with a much smaller dealer body, will have 70k retail sales
-chrysler 300 may reach 75k retail sales with a much poorer reputation than Chevy, less market penetration, and a smaller dealer body
-the camry will reach 360k retail consumers, accord will reach 310k retail consumers
SALES DATA
SALES DATA 2
Fleet sales are not all bad. they keep the factory going. that's about all they do. they help amortize the costs of a car. that's defeatist thinking. to sell to fleets, GM must heavily discount the cars. the only way they are going to make money off the platform and reengineering, refreshening costs is to give the car away?!!
retail sales to the buying public are heavily affected by fleet sales. take one visit to the forums at Edmunds.com, the biggest site for researching cars, and the biggest reason not to buy the new Malibu is resale value. Can you blame them? If they were looking at a new car as a possible investment down the road for their next down payment on a new car and money was an issue, could you wholeheartedly push them to an American car when resale value on Japanese cars is so much better.
I know I couldn't, otherwise I would be lying.
This is not the only reason I believe Impala should go RWD. I am just pointing out that calling Impala a "big success" is not a strong argument.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
I'm saying that GMX551 - the RWD Chevy Zeta sedan - appears to now be history, regardless of whatever name it would carry.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
setting aside the fuel economy argument for FWD, which is bogus for a number of other reasons....
somehow I must get it across to people here that Impala really doesn't sell well once you take into consideration all the facts.
-there's something like 3900 chevrolet dealers nationwide
-toyota has 1600 dealers, including lexus
-honda has even less
-impala discounts are regularly several thousands of dollars
-pound for pound, inch for inch, the cheapest car per square inch
-for the year impala will have ~140k retail sales
-honda civic will have 260k retail sales [MSRP range 17k base to 24k hybrid]
-a freakin hyundai sonata will have over 80k retail sales, a hyundai!
-pontiac G6, widely considered to be a flop, will have 90k retail sales
-volkswagen with thier "overpriced cars", fear of bankruptcy, and piddling 400 dealers, will sell 80k retail sales for Jetta [base MSRP 17k-26k]
-Buick Lucerne, a much more expensive car, with a much smaller dealer body, will have 70k retail sales
-chrysler 300 may reach 75k retail sales with a much poorer reputation than Chevy, less market penetration, and a smaller dealer body
-the camry will reach 360k retail consumers, accord will reach 310k retail consumers
SALES DATA
SALES DATA 2
Fleet sales are not all bad. they keep the factory going. that's about all they do. they help amortize the costs of a car. that's defeatist thinking. to sell to fleets, GM must heavily discount the cars. the only way they are going to make money off the platform and reengineering, refreshening costs is to give the car away?!!
retail sales to the buying public are heavily affected by fleet sales. take one visit to the forums at Edmunds.com, the biggest site for researching cars, and the biggest reason not to buy the new Malibu is resale value. Can you blame them? If they were looking at a new car as a possible investment down the road for their next down payment on a new car and money was an issue, could you wholeheartedly push them to an American car when resale value on Japanese cars is so much better.
I know I couldn't, otherwise I would be lying.
This is not the only reason I believe Impala should go RWD. I am just pointing out that calling Impala a "big success" is not a strong argument.
somehow I must get it across to people here that Impala really doesn't sell well once you take into consideration all the facts.
-there's something like 3900 chevrolet dealers nationwide
-toyota has 1600 dealers, including lexus
-honda has even less
-impala discounts are regularly several thousands of dollars
-pound for pound, inch for inch, the cheapest car per square inch
-for the year impala will have ~140k retail sales
-honda civic will have 260k retail sales [MSRP range 17k base to 24k hybrid]
-a freakin hyundai sonata will have over 80k retail sales, a hyundai!
-pontiac G6, widely considered to be a flop, will have 90k retail sales
-volkswagen with thier "overpriced cars", fear of bankruptcy, and piddling 400 dealers, will sell 80k retail sales for Jetta [base MSRP 17k-26k]
-Buick Lucerne, a much more expensive car, with a much smaller dealer body, will have 70k retail sales
-chrysler 300 may reach 75k retail sales with a much poorer reputation than Chevy, less market penetration, and a smaller dealer body
-the camry will reach 360k retail consumers, accord will reach 310k retail consumers
SALES DATA
SALES DATA 2
Fleet sales are not all bad. they keep the factory going. that's about all they do. they help amortize the costs of a car. that's defeatist thinking. to sell to fleets, GM must heavily discount the cars. the only way they are going to make money off the platform and reengineering, refreshening costs is to give the car away?!!
retail sales to the buying public are heavily affected by fleet sales. take one visit to the forums at Edmunds.com, the biggest site for researching cars, and the biggest reason not to buy the new Malibu is resale value. Can you blame them? If they were looking at a new car as a possible investment down the road for their next down payment on a new car and money was an issue, could you wholeheartedly push them to an American car when resale value on Japanese cars is so much better.
I know I couldn't, otherwise I would be lying.
This is not the only reason I believe Impala should go RWD. I am just pointing out that calling Impala a "big success" is not a strong argument.
The Impala really should be a better car than it is. The sales numbers are distorted by the large fleet numbers (compared to Camcord), the styling is bland, the car itself is nothing special if the reviews are a guide. And, unless I'm mistaken, the Impala was originally RWD but then GM decided to break something that wasn't broken!!!
If I sound angry it's because I am. No reason why GM shouldn't be selling a large RWD sedan in big numbers especially if Hyundai, of all companies, can find good reason to!
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,688
From: Middle of Kansas
And, unless I'm mistaken, the Impala was originally RWD but then GM decided to break something that wasn't broken!!!
If I sound angry it's because I am. No reason why GM shouldn't be selling a large RWD sedan in big numbers especially if Hyundai, of all companies, can find good reason to!
If I sound angry it's because I am. No reason why GM shouldn't be selling a large RWD sedan in big numbers especially if Hyundai, of all companies, can find good reason to!
West South Central Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,371
From: Kilgore TX 75662
Does the general buying public know or even care what the differences are between front and rear wheel drive? The truth is, NO they do not. People know what they like. People buy what they like if they can afford it. To 90% of the buying population, if the impala name goes to a new rear wheel drive vehicle, they won't know the difference.
The current impala is boring. It blends in with all the other boring cars out there. Yeah, the SS has a nice engine... Yeah the car has a nice interior, but so do others out there. Obviously the current formula isn't working all that well.
If the new impala goes RWD, will the fleet buyers stop buying them? I seriously doubt it. If the new impala looks good, will more people buy it? Duh!
The current impala is boring. It blends in with all the other boring cars out there. Yeah, the SS has a nice engine... Yeah the car has a nice interior, but so do others out there. Obviously the current formula isn't working all that well.
If the new impala goes RWD, will the fleet buyers stop buying them? I seriously doubt it. If the new impala looks good, will more people buy it? Duh!
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
However it still is a "big success ... for GM".
Other than the Impala, potentially the new Malibu, and arguably the G6, General Motors has not nuthin' in the mainstream sedan segment. Saturn - sells in minuscule numbers. Buick - sales are plummeting. Pontiac - the Grand Prix died on the lot.
At the very least the Impala has SOMEONE buying them.
Now the G8 - competitively priced RWD w/ optional V8. Wagon and Ute variants. Probably very close to 0% fleet sales. Dealers everywhere. How many are they expecting to sell? 50,000 at most? Could GM really put a low volume vehicle like this in Chevy?
(And don't get me wrong, like a lot of people here, I would personally love to see more mainstream RWD sedans. Just that its not 1972 any more and these things don't sell like they used to.)
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Lucerne's replacement is on Zeta.
Don't get me started on that car.
No, Holden put 1 billion (Australian) dollars into Zeta for the Australian VE line. The program would be profitable selling in Australia alone. It was designed to also meet US regs. The US side of the investment is limited to a slight mod in the front structure to fit larger wheels and tires, some weight reduction, and adapting the vehicle for North American suppliers.
There is more to the story than CAFE.
Because GM has a number of divisions that Huyndai doesn't that better fits the market a large RWD near luxury sports sedan fits.
Top selling cars are FWD sedans. Largest profit margins (outside of trucks and SUVs) are FWD sedans.
Sure, any profit Chrysler's making in cars is coming from RWD 300s and Chargers, but Chrysler was actually making money selling nothing more than minivans and Rams, so a good selling LX line for them was a screaming success where at GM those same sales numbers don't come close to what the FWD Impala (let alone the top selling FWD Toyota or Honda) sells annually.
There is more to the story than CAFE.
Sure, any profit Chrysler's making in cars is coming from RWD 300s and Chargers, but Chrysler was actually making money selling nothing more than minivans and Rams, so a good selling LX line for them was a screaming success where at GM those same sales numbers don't come close to what the FWD Impala (let alone the top selling FWD Toyota or Honda) sells annually.
Last edited by guionM; Dec 31, 2007 at 03:52 AM.