The 3.5L and 3.7L both have a double hump in the torque curve. In the 3.5L the first hump (2800rpm) peaks a little higher the second (4600rpm).

In the 3.7L the 2nd hump just barely beats out the 2800rpm hump.



I suspect GM cheated on the 3.5L rating and underrated the 2nd hump to make the peak torque at a lower RPM. Just my guess

see how flat the second hump is...hmmmm



GS350 is 272 horsepower 254 lb-ft torque. It is direct injection but a lower compression ratio than the IS350 enigne (10.8:1 vs. 11.8:1) Toyotas use the lower CR engine. For comparison GMs new DI 3.6L will be 11.3:1 CR. Since it is a little bigger with lower CR I expect it to be right there with the IS engine as far as HP goes.

 

The mighty R-2800 is the greatest piston aero engine of all time, radial, inline or otherwise.

Shoot a cylinder off it and you can still fly home.

 

Only because it's a Toyota and you don't understand area under the curve.

 

I'm not really allowed to like them. I did my co-op work (3 years...) at GEAE so I'm painfully biased.

 

Understood.

GE makes terrific turbines - no arguments there.

I just love Pratt and Whitney for their radials. Made Rolls-Royce Merlins look like limp noodles.

The British solution:

"Chaps, lets make us a thoroughbred of an airplane motor - complicated, fragile, OK power, but with a small frontal area and liquid cooling."



The uniquely American solution to a problem...

"We don't give a rat's a$$ what the frontal area of the motor is - the damned thing makes 2800hp and literally frightenes the air out of the way... Liquid cooling sucks. One rifle bullet in a cooling line means the engine will eventually sieze from overheating. Overheat a P&W radial??? He!!, we don't even need to put oil in the thing and it STILL won't overheat."

 

Oh, yeah. Forgot I had noticed that before.
http://coloradofans.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=50
I see you even used my pics.

 

LOL.. so your BahamaTodd. I've Z28xZ71 on that site.

 

Nope. Unless you have greater sources and connections that anyone on clublexus.com ... that info has yet to be released for the US GS350. That's why I didn't give a specific power figure.

The figure you gave is for the new entry level ES350 that makes 272 horsepower. I guess you got the ES and GS mixed up? Or do you indeed have some sort of really good source?

Horsepower figures for the GS350 have not been been announced officialy yet. The only way we have to speculate is that the GS350 is already out in Japan
http://lexus.jp/models/gs/performance/powerunit.html
The power rating for the japanese model translates to roughly 311 horsepower for the GS350.


Edit:
Here's an article that can explain the GR family engines to you and how they related and where they're found to date:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine

 

Really, do I not understand the area under the curve? Please - tell me exactly what I do and don't understand now since you seem to know so much about me. I'd looove to hear about it.

While we're at it, I'll tell you something about you - you have a deep passionate hatred for japanese vehicles - trucks in particular. So deep that you start making asinine comparisons between compact Toyotas and 1-ton F350 diesel trucks.

Your hatred is so deep that you make generalized statements assuming that because a truck is from a foreign make, that the power 'under the curve' (which really should be worded "across the curve" (vs just at the peak) must be weak.

You know what they say about assumptions.

The 1GR-FE in the Toyota Tacoma and Toyota 4runner puts out 95% of its peak torque at 2750 rpm and beyond, with a very flat curve trailing slightly up until its 4000 rpm peak. In fact it appears the new 3.7L I5 does right about the same - looks to me like about 95% of its peak at 2700-2800, but then it appears to dip down to maybe 80-85% of its peak torque for a short while until hitting its actual peak... last I recall seeing a dyno of a stock 1GR-FE it had no such dip. Steady but slow line leading from 95% @ 2750 to 100% torque at 4000.

And quick math lesson just to leave any confusion behind - 95% of 266 is more than 95% of 242. Same with 100% of either.

 

He (Threxx) probably does understand power under the curve. But I agree that when a GM product is involved, he sees the cloud and when a Toyota product is involved, he sees the silver lining.

I.e. The GM inline 5 has impressive power output considering it's down one cylinder and .3l on the Toyota V6. Reply: "I'd rather have the Toyota." Never mind that the response was not to my point.

I.e. The GS430 doesn't seem to have 300 actual hp. Reply: "If it doesn't now, it will this Fall".

Of course, this thread restarted, because he had to point out that the GM 5.3l came out a little short compared to the rumors of a year ago.

Let's see what other threads he's started recently:

Corvette roofs fall off;
Is Cadillac really the best selling luxury brand (makes case that it's Lexus);
Cadillac Renaissance: Miracle or Mirage
Has the life cycle of the Corvette been shortened?
BMW tries their hand at modern retro?
Is magnaride the future of vehicle suspension technology? (makes case that maybe it isn't)

I got bored and didn't want to go any further. Maybe the next one would have been something positive for GM or negative for Toyota ("Impala devastates 2007 Camry" maybe would have been the next one). And some of the above are even neutral (BMW).

But there does seem to be a pattern. That's alright Threxx. You have lots of good info, and we can take it.

 

No, actually you said the 3.7L from GM was ahead in terms of power. I said 'no, not really, it's 6hp ahead but 24tq behind... given the choice of the two (albeit not very dramatic) differences, I'd take a 24tq advantage over a 6hp advantage, especially when in a truck'. That was striclty in reference to you saying the GM motor had better power output - and I was saying "not so fast". I think most poeple would pick 24tq over 6hp when in a truck with all other factors being equal and brands being neutral.

My response was much more detailed than that. Previously I stated surprise since Lexus did state all of their vehicles from 05 and beyond were SAEII complient. So either the GS430 really does have 300hp and is under-rated in other countries, or they failed to adjust for it. THen I followed with 'either way it will be fixed this fall when the new motor comes out'.

Pretty much everything seems to have come up short so far except for the high output 6.0 - though not all confirmed, I was just reminding all of the people who acted like they were 100% sure about different things that 100% doesn't always end up being 100%.

In response to another thread where some people kept saying it was a proven fact that Caddy sells more over a particular MSRP. All I did was ask for a source for that fact. Nobody had one, so I decided to make a thread about it so I could get broader coverage on the topic and hopefully somebody out there would have a 'source'. Nobody did.

Edmunds article. In that very same article I specifically stated that their only "Stage 2" vehicle, the Escalade, is best in class. The title of my thread was the title of the edmunds article. My stance was that it was not a mirage (so far) and is really happening.

That's not anti-GM or pro-foreign in any way whatsoever. In fact a shortened life cycle for the Vette says good things about GM - that they aren't just resting on their butts waiting for it to become long in the tooth before they bother to replace it. I was actually asking that question for a more specific reason - I was writing up a new budget for our household, and I have a savings account labeled corvette savings fund, but no real 'target date' on it. If the C7 is coming out mid 2010, for example, then that'd give me a good target date to shoot for in my budget.

Not anti-GM in the least. In fact it was actually anti-foreign, as I said I hated the new BMW design (much like I hate most all retro vehicles, but that BMW was the worst I've seen to date)

Huh? I never made a case that it wasn't. lol
I don't know nearly enough on the subject to make a case. But others did mention that there were some superior semi-active suspensions on the market - I was never aware of the differences or that semi active was better than magneride, but still questioned the durability of semi-active setups.
That entire thread was just meant for me to learn and others to teach me and that's all that happened. I made a case for absolutely nothing. If anything I got really interested in the C6's magneride suspension - got kind of excited/impressed by it, and decided to learn more about it by posting the thread.

I understand I make more pro-foreign posts and threads than most others here but I like to consider myself (and some others) the yin to this forum's ****. It's a nice balance that keeps the conversation from being nothing but a bunch of GM kool aid drinkers patting each other on the back every opportunity they get.

And as I pointed out in your thread examples above, often times the purpose of my threads gets automatically taken out of context and misconstrued simply because I was the one that posted them. I'm not *always* out to get GM just like you aren't *always* out to worship them.

 

Typo, I meant to type ES350, I got my #'s from Lexus.com. I'd expect the GS to get the same 3.5L as the IS since it is RWD.

 

Yes, I did say it was ahead in terms of power, because it is. You do understand that horsepower is indeed power, as opposed to torque, which is not power?


Thank you for keeping the forum balanced. We certainly wouldn't want to tip over.
Btw, I think you mean "yang" rather than "****"

I didn't say that you were out to get GM; my statement was merely that you tend to see the cloud when GM is involved and the silver lining when Toyota is involved. I think you admit as much in the paragraph two above where you say you're balancing out the GM kool aid drinkers.

 

Torque and horsepower are both measures of power. They work hand in hand. One cannot exist without the other. There is a reason why both are measured out on dynographs and listed in manufacturer specs because they both drastically affect the driving dynamics of the car's power curve. Don't tell me you think that horsepower is the only measurement of 'true' power in a dynograph because it has the word 'power' in it?

PS - Tell that to your average Civic Si driver and he'll probably agree with you whole-heartedly since they like to pretend torque is an after thought.

PPS - Try telling the average diesel driver that his truck isn't powerful because torque doesn't count.



Yeah that's kinda crazy. I definitely knew it was yang, thought I typed yang, and yet it came out '****'.



The difference is I can look at things realistically if need be and I typically do. As I've mentioned before, I'm typically the ones telling the Lexus guys to get real on their boards. I like to think of myself as easy to see the entire picture, but what's the point of echoing the other 98% of what's said here? I might as well say something that hasn't already been repeated countless times on this board already by saying the things nobody else wants to hear or say.

 

No, it's not because it has the word power in it. Horsepower is a measurement of power, because that's what it is defined to be. Power is defined as a rate of accomplishing work. Another measurement of power is the watt (see also kilowatt, which is 1000 watts), even though the word 'power' is not part of 'watt'. This is pretty basic physics -- I'm surprised you would debate the point.

Torque, on the other hand is a measurement of twist. In an engine, torque times RPM gives you power (times a constant when using familiar units).

Note that I didn't say that torque doesn't count. Only that torque is not power.

Okay, so you play devil's advocate. That's consistent with what I wrote. I suppose if I read clublexus I'd see posts by you about Avalon transmission problems and awesome Chevy truck engines, etc.