Care to explain why the presence of an ohv valvetrain is a problem on a 60 degree V6 but not on a 90 degree V8? I know you weren't talking about the V8; I was talking about it because no one seems to care about it in the small block. So? Good counter claim. Having driven numerous ecotecs and numerous four cylinders from other makers, I am entitled to my opinion of the engine, regardless of my employment status. Others have addressed this price issue above, so I'll leave it alone I guess. Hope you like it. I think the Grand Am will be the fleet queen, at least in the first year (much like the "Classic" stood in for the Malibu at most rental places). Sure, I have some bias (just as everyone does about a given topic, for one reason or another) in support of my home team. But don't kid yourself, the discount isn't all that massive at all. Indeed. It will also be a great car for anyone else who is in the market for a midsize sedan and cares to drop their bias and ignorance long enough to give it a try. Probably so. Of course, since this isn't an auto magazine, but an online forum where just about ANYONE can post, I don't see the relevance here. Jason started a thread about being impressed with a couple of upcoming GM vehicles (something certain other members would likely never admit to, unless the media started fawning over the product the way they do over Hondas - then it would be cool to like GM and admit that they have good stuff too). I felt I had something to contribute to the thread, something counter to the usual (and often baseless) blather posted by, well, you know who...

:blah:

 

Actually, BMWs don't have hood ornaments. An understandable mistake, because you probably see very few BMWs or BMW owners at a Pontiac franchise.


1. Bank reps? If the only BMW owners you know are "lenders," you obviously don't get out much?

2. If "true car guys" are NASCAR fans, then yes there are more true car guys that own Pontiacs.

3. BMW owners don't make cheesy mods. Instead, they shell out for "Sport" and "Performance" packages. Just try finding a 325i that isn't a manual with the Sport Package.

4. When you consider the awesome resale values, BMWs are actually cheaper to own/lease than many far cheaper Domestic/Korean products?


1. Of course a BMW is a status symbol worldwide.

2. Actually, I-Drive is a brilliant way of getting rid of a huge number of look alike button that come with just about every navigation system.

3. Have you ever driven a 7-series? Despite the criticism, the car is great to drive and actually sells better in the U.S. than the old model. Maybe it's that wacky column shifter...


Shucks, I'd actually like to buy another GM product, so I'm actually hoping that they bring something reasonable out - sooner or later.


Compare the top of the line Mazda 6 to an Altima V6, a Camry V6 SE or even an Accord LX V6. The "real" Japanese competition is all bigger and more powerful.

 

1. Actually, I'm going to post a Honda/Acura thread really soon. I'm sure it'll warm the heart of every GM employee.

2. The fact remains that nobody attempted to "think out of the box" when it came to designing the G6. This car is a giant step forward for Pontiac, but absolutely no advance on the current non-GM class leaders. The G6 needed a 250hp DOHC V6, adequate rear-headroom and styling that didn't shout "Next Generation Grand Am."

 

The iDrive is brilliant? Actually from everything I've heard the user has to be brilliant just to turn on the A/C with the darn thing....it may be an interesting concept but the execution is typical German...much more complex than it needs to be. I have an engineering buddy who works for Detroit Diesel which is owned by DCX...they have the Germans running through the plant all the time telling them how things should be done...and the joke is if it takes 2 parts to perform a task for the American engineer it will take 5 with the German engineer....because that's just more "sophisticated."

 

I work for a valet company in Williamson county, 3rd richest county in the country. So our clientel drives all the fancy Mercedez, BMW's, Lexus's, Caddys, and Acuras, and Infinitis.

I will tell you for a fact that most BMW drivers are not enthusiasts. They buy their car for the status symbol. The fact that it drives nice is a plus. Most of the BMW's I park do not have the sport package. And in the past year I think I've parked maybe 7 or 8 BMW's with a stick. And I bet I've parked over 100 BMW's in that same time period.

And the G6 is a really nice car. I sat in one at the dealership Sporty looks, and a almost flawlessly executed interior, and a very competitive price. I think Pontaic will get a lot more people into the showrooms with this one.

And the reason that manufactors are going to electric assist is for gas mileage. It gives the car 1/2 more of a mpg. This is pretty significant when you consider that the manufactors have to meet the CAFE standards. I read that in this month's Motor Trend review on the G6. I don't know if it gives an inferior feel because I haven't driven a car with it.

 

On the subject of BMWs... While I would estimate roughly that most (meaning more than 50%) of their owners are just people looking for owning a BMW for its name and what it implies, there is also a very large percentage of enthusiasts (who can afford them). Acura Integra, for example, was bought mainly by customers who are not enthusiasts, yet it created one of the largest followings. Same with BMW.

It is very hard to compare such figures as Pontiac owners vs. BMW owners. Some specific models of Pontiacs are owned by enthusiasts more so (TransAm, Formula), while others are not (Grand Am, Gran Prix). Same goes for BMW. There's your 3-series, then there's your M series and Z series.

As for cheesy mods... Shelling out an exorbitant amount of money for a sport package might indeed qualify for a cheesy mod considering the performance gained for the amount of money shelled out. Nonetheless, cheesy mods happen with every car type. You have GTPs running around with swapped pulleys and real wheels and rubber, you have them running with stickers and chrome. On the other hand you have your choice of BMWs running around with fart cans. Without any real data, it is impossible to quantify one's observations on a larger scale/implication.


You are right, it is brilliant for the sole reason listed above. What is not mentioned is the cost this brilliance brings. Many customers are having a hard time getting used to this i-Drive technology, and many tasks that used to be very simple became more complicated all of the sudden. So while it may be brilliant in reducing the number of buttons, again, it is no indication that it's an actual improvement for a consumer.


Altima? You picked a very bad choice. The ONLY attractive point (or two) about V6 altima were its big size and powerful engine. The interior was made of such cheap plastic that for 2005 it had been redesigned.
Camry? Camry has nice interior plastics, sells well because of Toyota reliability, and is massively underpowered compared to competition. How is Camry more powerful than Mazda6, which is able to pull 15.0 sec 1/4 mi?

Bigger does not equal better. I bet that Mazda6 is bigger than BMW 3 series in every way. And that Camry has more interior room than BMW 5-series.

 

I don't have to stay on the lot to see a BMW, do I? You may like to know that that little blue and white propeller on nearly EVERY BMW's hood is considered a hood ornament. It doesn't need to stand up to be one...

1. Actually yes, the only people I know who own BMWs do so for the snob appeal, not because the car actually does something spectacular. The people I know who want a performance car buy a 350Z, an F body, a Vette, or a Boxster...not some sedan.

2. Lesse here...my father is a 50 year old VP and CFO of a $55 million dollar paper company. He is as much a car guy as anyone I know. He owns a 2002 Formula. I have never seen him watch a Nascar race in my life. Care to comment? I bet you don't...Also, I suppose the Fleet Bank (now Bank of America ) VP of Operations for MA who purchased an '02 Firehawk Convertible from me is a real redneck too, eh? Or the 53 year old CPA who purchased the '99 Trans Am the other guy traded in? Indeed...some real low-lifes drive Pontiacs.

3. Yes, we all know that American car owners do all the cheesy stuff and the Beemers never are subjected to that. Tell that to the guy down the street here who just put an Indy car wing on his '98 328i...but hey, you must be right. You're redzed!!!


Judging from this statement, I think its been established what to think of your general opinion on automotive design...in case anyone around here was still wondering!!

So, all-knowing redzed, what DO you drive? I'm very curious. Also, why did you buy it? Further, knowing its some sort of Z28, why the HELL do you keep it? I mean, with all these superior options out there...

And to prove to you I get out apparently far more than you do, I don't sit on a site full of cars I do not like and berate them. While someone here does need to get out more, it sure as hell is not me...its too bad a thread I started because I liked a couple cars has turned into a p!ssing contest. Like all the GTO whiners on here, I'll say the same to you. Go drive a G6, then complain. Until then?

For the love of God, shut the hell up...

 

Oh and by the way, while my father does not, I have watched NASCAR since I was about 3 years old. And yes, I drive a Pontiac, and am proud of my Grand Prix. Got a problem with that? I'd love to know why you think that is relevant, but I'm sure you'll have some drivel to prove that point to me, as well

 

It warms my heart to see a little redzed ownage going on, especially the kind that forces him to reply with meaningless or diversionary responses.

j/p redzed.

Sort of.

Well, not really, I guess. :blah:

 

Does redzed live under a bridge?

 

3. Yes, we all know that American car owners do all the cheesy stuff and the Beemers never are subjected to that. Tell that to the guy down the street here who just put an Indy car wing on his '98 328i...but hey, you must be right. You're redzed!!! ...[/QUOTE]

1. It's interesting you threw the Vette and F-body into a list with the Boxster and 350Z.

2. You compiled a list of old, wealthy dudes that own T/As. Heck, Barbara Bush owned a LS-1 T/A Convetible.

3. I suspect that your neighbor bought his 1998 Beemer used.




Hey, keep following the herd. Of course, we all know that the only thing a herd leaves behind is alot of.....

I've owned my Z28 for half a decade, I bought it new and I'm keeping it for the foreseeable future. I just bought my new "winter-rat" and all I'll say is that it isn't a BMW. More on that later.


1. I love my LS-1 F-body, I loved my B-body and I've always admired the long dead G-bodies. Sadly, GM doesn't have a single car in production that's worthy of my well hard earned cash. As an F-body fan, I want to see things turn around. Not because I'm a GM employ, or a GM stockholder, but because I'd like to see a decent domestic product that fits my needs.

2. Like any car salesman, Jason E must think a test drive, any test drive will sell any sucker on any product. I predicted the poor reception of the GTO before the actually car dropped. All a G6 test drive would prove is that GM has changed the name but not the game.

3. After giving a 2004 "Goat" a test, I sure didn't change my mind, it just confirmed that buyers in the $33K price range are more perceptive than Lutz thought. A Pontiac salesman wouldn't admit it, of course, but 50 extra horsepower and a hood scoops won't fix the 2005 GTO.

 

I believe you should run for office...a bunch of claims with no substantiated facts...

-So what if the BMW guy bought it used? This proves what? The kid with the hopped-up GTP more than likely didn't buy it new either!
-So what if "old guys" bought the T/As, and Barbara Bush owned a T/A convertible? This proves my point...more than Nascar fans like Pontiacs. You helped me prove this one
-You ignore the fact I sell cars one day a week, and it isn't my regular job. I'm not your typical sales schmuck, and if you don't think the GTO is a great driving car, then you probably are alone with your opinion. I love how you use quotes around Goat, and ignore the fact the car is truer to its original heritage than any retro rod on the market today. The GTO was always a big, comfortable, understated, fast car. It was not a pony car, and looked not much different than a Le Mans, did it? The fact it looks a lot like a Grand Prix should not surprise anyone.
-I'm glad to hear you bought a new car. I hope it fulfills your wildest dreams. I also hope you post more on a website devoted to that particular car.
-Indeed, the herd hates iDrive. If I followed the herd, would I own a white and orange Camaro?

Just like a politician...a lot of hot air floating through the breeze. My apologies again to board regulars for the ridiculousness of this post. Somehow, I just can't seem to let redzed's comments go unchecked

 

Totally offtopic... but Jason, I swear I've seen your Z around here, in fact, I thought I saw it the other day on Route 20 in Westfield. Been making trips to Regency's to put them in their place? ;p As far as I know there's only one of those anniversary Zs around in this area...

To make an on-topic contribution to this thread, I plan on test driving a G6 as soon as Regency (our Pontiac dealer in Westfield) gets one in that I want to look at. I've been impressed so far by what I've seen, but I'd have to actually drive it to form a real opinion.

 

It very well could have been me. There are three other 30ths around here...one is a hardtop AT that's been for sale at various dealers 3 times since I bought mine, and a convertible 30th just showed up. Finally, there is a 30th SS convertible running around...sold by Suburban Auto Outlet 2 years ago, some blonde bought it and I last saw it in July at a Sunoco station in Agawam with no plates on it, a bent antenna and several quarter-sized dings in the RR fender A 1 of 136 car deserves better!!!! So there are a few others, but mine is the only 30th t-top I have seen around here, ever...it was sold new at Central. I bought it used from Medeiros in 2001, but Central was nice enough to throw the invoice my way

Feel free to stop by Fedor Olds Pontiac over in Easthampton on a Saturday if you wanna drive a G6...we have a GT in the showroom but I have a cheapie base model outside if you wanna drive it...

One final thing for redzed. He talks about how following the herd is bad, right? And indeed, BMW broke the mold with iDrive, and it has bit them ever since. Know what? He also pointed out GM will be the only carmaker with OHV engines after the Taurus dies. Apparently when GM doesn't follow the herd, its bad though?? OHV may be dated and iDrive may be something special, but at least I can change the radio station in my G6 to cover up that ghastly valvetrain clatter

 

It wasn't a convertible, and I was driving in the 'bird, so I couldn't hceck to see if it was T-tops or not (I was driving my Red 97' Firebird). I make notes of all the F-bodies I see (there's a 2002 Red SS for sale on Wilbraham road in Spfld). I've seen a white 30th Z around a few times last year too...

How has the general G6 reception been? I take it you're not able to share preorder numbers or anything, but I was yawning over the Grand Am for a few years and when the Bird gives up the ghost, whether or not there's a fifth gen will be suspect, and I would like a new car, so I am seriously looking at Pontiac's sedans (and maybe next year for a coupe).