those numbers are interesting. it always seems like there is a cadillac in the shop getting worked on. and chevy being so much better than gmc how does that happen?

TONY

 

How do you like this variation of the G6? This is THE powertrain that has my interest...and the one I most hope to get for my girlfriend upon debut next spring...

 

Personally, I just can't comprehend why anyone would want a pushrod V6 with a manual tranny. Unlike an OHV V8, any pushrod V6 sounds terrible are high rpms. The moans and groans of a OHC V6 are tolerable in a bottom-end application, with lots of sound deadener, aimed at a non-enthusiast clientele of geezers - something like a Buick - but if you actually aim to sell the G6 against the new Altima SE-R.... In the end, I'd expect the 3.9 liter/240hp unit to be inferior to any application of Nissan's VQ-series and possible even to Hyundai's upcoming 3.3 liter V6 (if the spin about the new Sonata having "best in class" power is to be believed).

Oh, did I forget to mention that GM's pushrod V6s will soon be the last available in passenger cars anywhere in the world. Either the whole world is wrong, or GM screwed up by limiting the DOHC HFV6 to overpriced "niche" product like the laughably expensive ($42K) Buick Rendevous Ultra.

 

Merely out of the sake of curiosity, redzed, is there ANYTHING you like about a GM product? At all? I mean, I am on this site because I rather enjoy GM products, have always been a fan of them, look forward to new product developments, etc. That's why I am here. While I am all for freedom of speech, and I do NOT believe GM does everything right all the time, I ask myself...

Why the HELL are you here? I mean really...I have NEVER seen you do anything but criticize, complain, whine, moan and b!tch in every single thread you enter. When I opened the thread, seeing you had last posted, I knew it had to be something negative. What else is new with you...if you dislike GM so mutch, WHY are you here? Do you really have so little to do with your free time you troll a site and complain about GM products? I mean, if you own a GM car then great...but if your posts tend to reflect your position on GM and ALL its products, then I feel bad you own a car you hate with such a passion.

Now, to respond to your obnoxious comment about OHV engines...

I have never owned an OHC engine, but have driven plenty having worked for a dealer for 4 years. Yes, the LX5 in the outgoing Intrigue sounded better when wound out over a 3800. And I am sure EVERY Intrigue owner appreciates that fact, right? Because, as we know, this is crucial to their enjoyment of the car... :rollseyes:

Pertaining to why I would want an OHV with a manual, lemme see here. Hmmmm...TORQUE. Torque is a fun companion with a manual. It means I don't have to wring the engine's neck quite so much in traffic. It means initial take-off is easier. However, I am supplied with the control and fun of a manual. Do I CARE if my 3900 will not sound so nice at 6 grand? Not at all. I have this magical thing called torque that makes me happy. And I am so, so glad that you have driven a 3900 and know how HORRIBLE it sounds. The smaller 3500 derivative in the Malibu even pleased Car and Driver overall in terms of performance and sound, and they are the most biased rag out there. I mean, I am sure you've driven one and you KNOW its an asinine thing to desire...I mean, an OHV manual????

All those C6 owners are going to be crying in their beer...

My apologies to the board regulars for me flaring up here, but it REALLY pisses me off when people who have never driven something complain about it, with NO knowledge. Plus, redzed is a little bit of a thorn anyways I bet you hate the GTO too, don't you? I just wish you had more things to do with your time, honestly...

 

One more thing about GM's OHV decisions...

I am personally all for it. I have owned an '89 Camaro 2.8, a '95 Grand Am SE 3100, an '02 Grand Am GT, my Z, my Grand Prix and an '89 Formula 305 TPI. What did I like most about these cars? Aside from the 2.8, THE ENGINE. And even that little 2.8 was bulletproof. I applaud GM for having the guts to continue to refine an engine architecture that simply works, and not bowing to what the rags say GM should do. The 3800 in my Grand Prix is smooth, torquey, responsive, and what's this? 28 MPG observed on the highway at an average speed around 80? Not bad for a 200hp, 3,500 lb car.

But man, why would anyone want an OHV engine? I mean, we all know how awful the LS1 and LS2 are. The performance and durability of this engine boggle the mind.

And as for smoothness? I have NEVER had a customer tell me a 3800 was objectionable. So sure, while the rags complain about its over 5 grand growl, what does Joe Consumer think? Its a great engine. Period. Customers in the know are already complaining the engine will be gone in a few years...I am one of them. As for the 60 degree V6, the 3100 in my '95 was smooth as silk, and makes me wonder what the HELL GM did when they went to the 3400 in the N bodies in '99...my '02 Grand Am was obnoxious, despite being the same basic engine. Yet, pop the hood on both and they both sounded almost identical...something I have never been able to explain to anyone. If GM can get their soundproofing right, and continue to refine the engine, there is no reason why this is not a torquey, fuel-efficient, inexpensive option that will work beautifully in Joe Consumer's Malibu, G6, Equinox or whatever for many years.

And like I said before, I am highly doubtful C6 owners feel their engines are lacking...

 

Just freaking ignore redzed. OHV does not = noisy. Stack up a Gen III V8 against a dohc V8. The Gen 3 sounds quite smooth and pleasant at high rpm.

Engine noise comes from many sources, including intake ducting and exhaust system. A huge factor in noise, though, is how the engine is constructed AND mounted to the vehicle.

Newer engine designs with ultra rigid blocks and heads, structural oil pans that actually become part of the block (as on the Gen III, and not like the basic stamped pans as on the LT1 or SBC), rigid and properly designed and damped accesory mounts, and so forth make a large part of the difference between hearing "noise" and just hearing the part of the engine you want to hear in certain tones (like intake, exhaust). Toyota/Lexus was one of the first applications to really hit this hard, and the whole industry has moved in that direction. For example, the Ecotec 4 cylinder. That thing is freaking smooth (I've driven several, right up to the redline, from the 2.2L to the 2.0L S/C to the 2.0 turbo in the 9-3 to the 2.4L VVT). Most magazines recognize it as such. Yet you often get the standard "...the engine proved to be very smooth and quiet, though not quite up to the level of the best from Japan..." Really? Show me. I swear they type some of that stuff out of habit. I've driven Accord 4 cylinders, Toyota 4 cylinders, and I'll stack the ecotec up against ANY of them. Seriously.

Anyay, as I stated, I've driven a couple 3900/six speed equipped G6s, and I think it is a sweet car. It is very smooth (I didn't have a freaking Accord or Altima to compare it back to back, but it is smooth) and very quiet. It sounds a little more "expensive" than a 3800 does. Maybe not quite BMW inline-6 (or 4.2L Vortec I6) buttery, but smooth enough that I kept having to look at the tach to see what speed the engine was turning. I'd be running around on the track in 4th gear and forget that I still had 5th and 6th, because the engine was very smooth and quiet at 3000 to 3500 rpm in 4th. I also did a few runs into the 5 and 6k range, and it remains very composed there as well. And the 245 hp makes the engine feel strong. I've never driven a supercharged 3800 with a manual (since they don't sell it like that), but the 3900 feels very much like the 3800 S/C in the thrust department (and better in the noise department).

I also thought the steering and braking were quite good in the car. I didn't wring it out on a road course, but I was quite happy with the ride/handling compromise for a sporty family sedan. I really did think BMW-ish more than once as I drove it. The epsilon platform is already known for its rigidity and ride/handling ability. The G6 combines that with sportier styling and a very stout powertrain. Definitely worth a look.

Back to the noise or refinement claims by car rags, I think too many car magazine tools (and worse, the newspaper "auto" columnist tools who pick up on something the "experts" say and then try to perpetuate it so they look like they know what they are talking about - electric steering and pushrod engine "refinement" deficits are two of my favorite examples), and some of the people reading those magazine tools like to bitch about the noisy pushrod engines (but not with the small block, hmmmmm).

Do you really think that adding a metal rod into the valve train to transfer the force from the camlobes over a short distance all of the sudden makes an engine sound like crap? Keep in mind, too, that with DOHC 4-valve engine, you get 4 cams (or two in a line engine) turning instead of one, and twice as many valves opening and closing, rockers pivoting, lifters moving, etc. So you have different (and more) sources of noise. Not necessarily smoother, just different. I swear, I think half of it is psychological...

 

1. I wasn't talking about OHV V8s.

2. With the impending death of the Taurus, GM will be the sole producer of OHV V6s in the entire world.

I'm glad a GM employee thinks so highly of GM's Ecotec motors.


1. I've already seen a current 3.5liter/200hp G6 with an MSRP of $27,590(!), so I can only assume that the 3.9 liter model will be pushing $30K. This Pontiac is obviously "BMW-ish" in sticker price, if not in styling, resale value or engineering.

2. Based on the recommendations of this GM employee, I look forward to renting a G6.

3. All domestic cars compare favorably to the "foreign competition" (a) if you work for the company and (b) get a massive employee discount.

4. The OHV V6 Pontiac G6 is probably the best FWD Pontiac ever made, and will be a great car for people who've already owned a succession of Grand Ams.

5. If GM employees actually wrote all the articles in the car mags, GM cars would get alot better press..

 

99.5% of customers will not care.

 

Really? Man, it must be great to assume everything, as you typically do. A $27,590 G6 GT will have every single option possible, including leather, On-Star, Panormaic roof (a $1,500 option alone), chrome wheels, 6 CD Monsoon, dual heated seats, radio controls on the wheel, etc. Not to mention all the standards, including 17s, ABS, power everything, adjustable pedals, etc. So using your logic, then yes maybe it is possible to get a 3.9 up to $29k or so.

But I am confident most will NOT reach that high. How is this any different than what the Grand Prix has done for years? Even today it is quite possible to option a loaded GT past a GTP...how is this example any different?

A cloth GTP with a normal sunroof, 6 speed and non-chrome wheels will more than likely sticker around $26,000-$26,500, based on GT #s. Look at that $27,590 and all that it carries with standard and optional features, THEN compare it to the competitors. I don't see a huge sunroof, chrome wheels or On-Star anywhere on a Mazda 6's options list...do you?

A guy at work (my real job as an analyst with Banknorth Massachusetts) just bought an '04 Mazda 6. I invited him over to look at a baseline G6 6 cylinder. His '04 stickered for $20,500, this G6 is $21,800 with $800 in options. His car has a leather wheel and radio controls on the wheel as advantages over the 6. The G6?

-V6
-On-board computer (I mis-spoke above...EVERY G6 radio has this)
-4 wheel disc brakes versus rear drums
-Alloy wheels
-Power adjustable pedals
-A few other minute differences.

For $1,300 more, even he admits the G6 is a downright steal. And funny, he rather enjoyed the relaxed hum of that "dated" OHV V6 over the thrashing of his little 4 cylinder. Indeed...the G6 is a rip-off, for sure, when compared to its competitors

 

Well, Mazda 6's little 4 cylinder does have one issue - it sounds like it has developed holes at the manifold. It's a little noisy.

I test-drove I4 5-speed, and I was truly surprised at what a fine engine it was. I thought it would be underpowered, but it didn't feel like it even at highway speeds. It "propels" the car in the 1/4 mi in about 16.4 - 16.6 seconds, which is just fine. This is a tick behind Malibu's V6, so the losses are not that apparent. Besides, there's no substitute for a manual .

Personal preference - I'll take a Japanese 4-cylinder with a manual transmission over a domestic 6-cylinder automatic. But if you can get G6 with base V6 and manual - that's a pretty tough decision as far as powertrain is concerned.

 

I have no beef with Mazda 4 cylinders at all, quite frankly. My girlfriend's current car is a '93 Probe with only 61k miles on it. All Probes from '93-'97 had either a Mazda-built 115hp 2.0 4 banger or the 168hp 2.5 V6. This little motor pulls far better than its 115hp would suggest, is fairly smooth and has proven perfectly reliable in the 9 months and 13k miles we've owned it. We had to put a timing belt on it when we first got it, and at that point we did plugs and wires as well. The only engine defect was a valve cover gasket leak I also fixed...I dare say to be the only leak in a 13 year old engine is ok, especially considering GM's track record with intake gaskets...

However, while the stick is fun, the torque and smoothness of a V6 for the same $$$ is, well, funner IMO

 

I agree that most Pontiac G6 customers "will not care" about the mechanical aspect of their car. However, if GM intends to chase affluent, knowledgable and enthusiastic buyers with the Pontiac brand....

I guess my point is that the G6 will only lure BMW owners who recently had their 3-series repoed.

 

I'd be willing to bet that the same percentage of BMW buyers "don't care" about what type of engine is in their 325i Sedan either...

Oh, wait... every BMW buyer is a knowledgeable car enthusiast, right??

 

1. I have a pretty low opinion of the Mazda 6, and most Mazda branded products in general.

2. Since most every non-Korean, non-Ford affiliated manufacturer makes a better mid-sized car than the Mazda 6, you've picked a pretty soft target for the G6.

3. By next year, Pontiac G6 "rental buybacks" will be readily and cheaply available. Who can argue against the "value" of cars that still have the remainder of a factory warranty and will go through auction for far less than half of original MSRP?

4. When Oprah gave away those G6s, it said volumes about the true value of Pontiac's new "BMW beater." Yup, they were worth every penny of the $8K or so that every "winner" paid in income tax.

 

People who buy BMW's enthusiasts for the most part, eh? Or more than likely bought it for the neat little hood ornament, and the attitude that goes with it

At the bank here I know at least 4 lenders with 3 series. These guys are about as far from car enthusiasts as I can imagine. They bought it because it said BMW on it, not because they felt it was some supreme piece of automotive excellence. To challenege your opinion, I'd be willing to say there are MORE true car guys driving Pontiacs than BMWs. I see far more modified Trans Ams, Grand Prixs, Grand Ams and yes, even GTOs around here than I have ever seen BMWs. Why? Enthusiasts can actually afford one.

BMW is a staus symbol first and foremost to the vast majority of their buyers...I'm willing to bet money on it. Hey, at least I can change the radio stations in the inferior G6. iDrive????????

And that brings me to my point...you are fantastic at pointing out all of GM's faults while ignoring others. So again, it begs the question...why waste your time here? I thought it was great I berated your general attitude and never heard a word of response

And the Mazda 6 is a "soft" comparison? Explain that one to me...PLEASE. You are probably the only person here that pictures the Mazda 6 as being inferior to its competition...I cannot wait to here THIS BS....