GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by 94LightningGal
As someone who has extensively test driven an automatic V6 Altima, all I can say is................ I sure hope GM can come up with some magic, or hocus pocus, because torque steer in that 240hp car was absolutally awful (I tested the first year of the Altima with the VQ engine).
If anyone ever drove one of the FWD diamond star turbo cars, they will understand what I mean. I actually thought the Altima was dangerous. When you got on it on an on ramp, it would almost jerk the steering wheel out of your hands (and I always use 2 hands when driving). At the same time, the steering felt so light, it almost felt as if you momentarily lost control of the front tires.
All in all, very scary.
If anyone ever drove one of the FWD diamond star turbo cars, they will understand what I mean. I actually thought the Altima was dangerous. When you got on it on an on ramp, it would almost jerk the steering wheel out of your hands (and I always use 2 hands when driving). At the same time, the steering felt so light, it almost felt as if you momentarily lost control of the front tires.
All in all, very scary.
I rented an Altima some time ago. It's OK in the city, but when accelerating or at high speed, all I can say is.....
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by Beanboy
Jason E, I'm voting for you for longest sig ever. Damn man!
I use the same sig on 5 different sites (camaroz28.com, probetalk.com, clubgp.com, grandamgt.com, gmpowertalk.com), and typically the only comment I get is "Damn, you got an Anniversary Camaro??
" I guess you're right...it was pretty long
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,030
From: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by 94LightningGal
As someone who has extensively test driven an automatic V6 Altima, all I can say is................ I sure hope GM can come up with some magic, or hocus pocus, because torque steer in that 240hp car was absolutally awful (I tested the first year of the Altima with the VQ engine).
If anyone ever drove one of the FWD diamond star turbo cars, they will understand what I mean. I actually thought the Altima was dangerous. When you got on it on an on ramp, it would almost jerk the steering wheel out of your hands (and I always use 2 hands when driving). At the same time, the steering felt so light, it almost felt as if you momentarily lost control of the front tires.
All in all, very scary.
I am not a fan of high hp FWD cars at all. That experience really drummed it into me. A good AWD system is not very expensive, and it does not come with much of a mpg cost. Just look at the Ford 500. The AWD version only suffers a loss of 1 mpg over the FWD version. Also, you can have an AWD version for about $25K. That is not expensive. If I was looking at a 300hp FWD car for about $30K, I would certainly be willing to pay an additional $1000-1500 more for AWD.
If anyone ever drove one of the FWD diamond star turbo cars, they will understand what I mean. I actually thought the Altima was dangerous. When you got on it on an on ramp, it would almost jerk the steering wheel out of your hands (and I always use 2 hands when driving). At the same time, the steering felt so light, it almost felt as if you momentarily lost control of the front tires.
All in all, very scary.
I am not a fan of high hp FWD cars at all. That experience really drummed it into me. A good AWD system is not very expensive, and it does not come with much of a mpg cost. Just look at the Ford 500. The AWD version only suffers a loss of 1 mpg over the FWD version. Also, you can have an AWD version for about $25K. That is not expensive. If I was looking at a 300hp FWD car for about $30K, I would certainly be willing to pay an additional $1000-1500 more for AWD.
Go out and find a Caddy ETC to test drive, you will probably feel different about a performance FWD car. The ETC was the fastest FWD car through the 90s and may still be today. Though certainly not as fun to drive as a powerful RWD car and hanling at the limit is not very good, torque steer is not a problem.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by Big Als Z
LSD will take a lot of that torque steer away...wish GM broke out the cash to put them in the cars.
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Posts: 1,954
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by Jason E
Also, I fail to see how the GP looks more "dated" than any other sedan. If you wanna call the back seat cramped then so be it...I know you probably learned that from Car and Driver some time ago
But quite frankly, there is nothing "dated" about the styling of the car. You may love it or hate it (I frankly like the older style better), but there is nothing "dated" about it...
But quite frankly, there is nothing "dated" about the styling of the car. You may love it or hate it (I frankly like the older style better), but there is nothing "dated" about it...
2. The cheap plastic fascia in the GP is dated. The way the dash is angled toward the driver, in a confining, early '90s sort of way is dated. The long overhang look is dated. With the exception of the plastic ribbing and smoked tail light lenses that Lutz undoubtably deleted, this car looks and feels like a holdover from the last decade. It takes a Pontiac salesman to see "nothing dated" about this car.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by redzed
1. The back seat of the GP is pitifully cramped by any standard. Only a Pontiac salesman would fail to appreciate that.
2. The cheap plastic fascia in the GP is dated. The way the dash is angled toward the driver, in a confining, early '90s sort of way is dated. The long overhang look is dated. With the exception of the plastic ribbing and smoked tail light lenses that Lutz undoubtably deleted, this car looks and feels like a holdover from the last decade. It takes a Pontiac salesman to see "nothing dated" about this car.
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Posts: 1,954
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
I own one. I disagree. Rear seat room is fine. My wife & I take our two toddler nieces with us in the GP in their carseats in the back. Pleanty of room for getting them situated and all. Also, no problems taking friends out in the back seat either. It's fine.
2. If your friends don't gripe about sitting in the back of the GP, they (a) must be hobbit-sized, or they (b) think so highly of you that they don't want to hurt your feelings.
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
The only thing I'll agree with is I don't like the plastics used on the dash... the hard black plastic on the center stack looks and feels cheap, IMO, and the dash over itself look sand feels "rubbery"... other than that, I have no problem with the set up, and have no feelings of it feeling a "decade old"...
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by redzed
1. Toddlers? How about fully grown human beings? I refused a 2004 Grand Prix at a rental counter because of the poor rear head room.
2. If your friends don't gripe about sitting in the back of the GP, they (a) must be hobbit-sized, or they (b) think so highly of you that they don't want to hurt your feelings.
2. If your friends don't gripe about sitting in the back of the GP, they (a) must be hobbit-sized, or they (b) think so highly of you that they don't want to hurt your feelings.
As for the people in the back... again, NO ONE has complained. It's not because they don't want to hurt my feelings... it's because they aren't cramped. Please... tell me exactly how much seat time you have spent in a 2004+ Grand Prix's backseat to be panning it universally. While I am almost always driving the car when I am in it, however, we used the passthrough for the trunk to carry something home that was rather long, and the trunk was still open, so I sat in the back holding it to keep it more stable.... It was about a 35-40 minute ride... I didn't get out of the car thinking I was cramped at all... and this was with a stack of lumber riding next to me through the passthrough.
The worst thing about the dash of the GP is how it angles towards the driver a bit too much. Modern cars like the 300C have gotten away from this sort of thing almost completely.
(again)
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,954
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
I meantioned the toddlers because of the car seats, and then getting the kids in and out of the carseats. Have you ever done this before?
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
As for the people in the back... again, NO ONE has complained. It's not because they don't want to hurt my feelings... it's because they aren't cramped. Please... tell me exactly how much seat time you have spent in a 2004+ Grand Prix's backseat to be panning it universally. While I am almost always driving the car when I am in it, however, we used the passthrough for the trunk to carry something home that was rather long, and the trunk was still open, so I sat in the back holding it to keep it more stable.... It was about a 35-40 minute ride... I didn't get out of the car thinking I was cramped at all... and this was with a stack of lumber riding next to me through the passthrough.
2. The lumber-in-the-trunk issue is why there currently are no sedans or 4/5-passenger coupes in my driveway.
Originally Posted by Darth Xed
I suppose this is a subjective issue, but I disagree. The center stack does turn toward the driver... this makes sense, since the driver uses the controls... however, it's not some dramatic sweeping angle , and it does not feel like it is taking any usable space away from me when I am driving... to the contrary, it brings the controls to the driver at a much more useful and ergonomic angle.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by redzed
If car seats were a big issue in my life, would I have a Z28?
1. I don't know how tall you are, but I'm not that much beyond 6 foot. Other than the Cadillac DeVille (which has a really uncomfortable bottom cushion), I don't know of a single current GM sedan where my hair isn't brushing the headliner. The 2004 Grand Prix didn't change this trend toward minimal head room, and neither did the G6.
2. The lumber-in-the-trunk issue is why there currently are no sedans or 4/5-passenger coupes in my driveway.
It's interesting how GM adopted a 1980's European idea, and then stuck with it long after the Europeans started to back away. Again, refer to the Chrysler 300C.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by redzed
1. The back seat of the GP is pitifully cramped by any standard. Only a Pontiac salesman would fail to appreciate that.
2. The cheap plastic fascia in the GP is dated. The way the dash is angled toward the driver, in a confining, early '90s sort of way is dated. The long overhang look is dated. With the exception of the plastic ribbing and smoked tail light lenses that Lutz undoubtably deleted, this car looks and feels like a holdover from the last decade. It takes a Pontiac salesman to see "nothing dated" about this car.
2. The cheap plastic fascia in the GP is dated. The way the dash is angled toward the driver, in a confining, early '90s sort of way is dated. The long overhang look is dated. With the exception of the plastic ribbing and smoked tail light lenses that Lutz undoubtably deleted, this car looks and feels like a holdover from the last decade. It takes a Pontiac salesman to see "nothing dated" about this car.
Besides the fact that I own a 1971 Cutlass, I thought that the Intrigue was the most appealing of all the W-bodies. It wasn't dowdy like the Buicks, and it wasn't trying to be a four-door coupe like the Grand Prix.
I think the Intrigue had more room than the GP does.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,276
From: Chattanoga & Franklin
Re: GM high-power FWD cars--Why?
Originally Posted by redzed
The worst thing about the dash of the GP is how it angles towards the driver a bit too much. Modern cars like the 300C have gotten away from this sort of thing almost completely.
This is completely subjective B.S. I've driven a Grand Prix and didn't like the dash because it was too busy. But the whole thing of the driver angle is a great idea. It is very egronomic(and keeps the passanger from messing with the radio
) and doesn't make me feel cramped. BMW was the one of the players who started this trend because it was more egronomic. Now with I Drive, egronomics has gone completely out the window at BMW. I look forward to the return of egronomics and simplicity at BMW.Also, the back seat is not cramped in a Grand Prix. When I had to rent one, my buddies that were 6'4" rode back there and didn't complain. Its not like a Deville or Town Car, but this car is a midsize sedan.