We agree on something.

That 26k wasn't dollars, just some random (didn' want to dig up actual figures) annual sales figures on what i think is an approximate # of males who bought (registered atleast) new camaro's towards the last couple of years. I'm probably off by a couple of grand, but its somewhere in that area.

It's just that some guys want the camaro to have a very limited appeal and feel threatened that the girl across the street drives the same car he does. I think its silly.

 

Testosterone (SP!?) is a wiered and unpredictable thing sometimes.

 

First off I have nothing against Mustangs. It is very good news that they are being sold as fast as they can make them. I don't even care if they have to sale a million v6 mustangs just to make a 1000 gt's. But to defend a limp V6 in terms of being a real sports car is not reality. It is just something we have to deal with. If you like V6's thats fine its just not my thing. I will have to agree with Graham and say that the mustang is very common among young women/girls and no Gold I do not have scientific calculations to back that up. Just my observation since I look at every mustang I see. When your looking for a race it is very disappointing that there are so many V6 cars out there. Including Camaros. But like I said before, if they have to make a million V6 2007/2008 Camaros to help sell a 1000 Z28's then that is ok.

And as far as wanting a Camaro because it is a little more exclusive than a mustang that is not a bad thing. Going along with the mainstream is not always a bad thing but why do whatever everbody else is doing? Young girls and/or guys all want mustangs because that is what everybody else wants or has and that is what is in demand. Just like all the fast and furious crowd bought up all the eclipses and honda civics. If the 2007 Camaro is like the 1993 Camaro and offers performance, styling, and a good price I will seriously think about buying one. If GM just puts something out there that looks good and is popular for the masses then so be it. I will not buy one. I will buy a Mustang because they have the right formula.

And for Gold Rush. I have lots of friends with Mustangs that know that the Mustang is seen as a little girls car sometimes. It is not a numbers thing. Like Grahm said just reality. They get ribbed a little bit about that but then again at least the Mustang is still being sold. So the final questions are :did Ford sell out the Mustang to keep it alive? Maybe. But thats business and its still here. Could the Mustang V6 survive without the GT? No way. It takes enthusiasts to keep it going. Is the Camaro more of a mans car? And from 1993 to 2002 would it beat a mustang GT? Yes in my opinion, not actual #'s the Camaro was a little more aimed at young men and it was faster than a GT of comparable year. But that is what probably killed it, a narrow market.

 

v6 cars are the bread and butter. Always will be. They aren't going to be selling 150,000-200,000 z28/SS or GT's/Cobra's a year. On the mustang, v6's make up 70% of sales, GT's aronud 25%, and Cobra's 5%. A lot is riding on the v6 cars (mainly sales). With corporate fuel economy and everything the way it is, v6 cars play an important role. Trust me, Ford/GM couldn't sell 150,000-200,000 z28's or GT's even if they wanted to. why do you think Ford is capping GT sales at 50% this year?

@ the end of the day, i don't care how many horses the v6 model has or who they sell them to as long as i can get my Ls1 or ls2 camaro or 4.6l 3v or S/c'ed 4.6 Cobra's. I realize i couldn't purchase these cars without tons of v6 sales making the whole thing possible.

Btw: There's nothing girly about a Cobra that'll put down 360rwhp stock, and 450-500rwhp with a couple of mods. As for the 93+ GT's, they're relatively weak when you compare them to z28's of the same years, but that hardly makes them "girly". As for the mustang selling out...that couldn't be further from the truth. They are everybit as true to the original.

 

Mustang GT sales will not fall off, this has been proven time and time again from either a 215 hp model or the most recent 300 hp model...I have only seen a handful so far(05's), but im sure by spring/summer they'll be everywhere just like every other GT since the Fox Body.

 

Gold you sure you have a Z28? Are you a Ford Executive in disguise? Just messing with you. I think we are just stating the same things and agreeing on pretty much everything. The only thing I have to disagree on is that the Camaro was undoubtedly marketed more towards young men. I am not proud of this fact because like I said I think that was one of the major factors in it going away. If you remember the commercials in 1992 and 1993 they really went after the musclecar segment (Young Men mostly) with good perf., low price, and muscular look. Also in 1997/1998, whenever it was they came out with the Ram-Air TA the commercials were of a muscle car type. The whole redlight thing and so on. I loved the commercials and so did anybody that is into the whole muscle car thing. (Young Men Mostly). If you compare these to the ford mustang commercials for the most part they are of v-6 cars and convertibles and of young women driving them. They have earned the reputation, if even ever so slightly as being more geared towards women and of the non-performance person. No insult to any Mustang owners, just what I see. I have much respect for many different Mustangs and there is no shame in owning one. I would have a 385 hp Cobra in a second. But for an extra bit of change I might have gotten a vette. When Cobras went on sale where I live they stickered for 34,000 plus or minus but for the first year carried an extra 5,000 dollar stick it to you charge. Vette being a firm 42,000. But again my opinion and me being partial to Chevy probably. And I would also have a new GT also and may yet, they look better and better all the time. But anyway I just have to say that Mustangs sell really well because they are marketed to a broad spectrum of people, including many young girls and guys that arent performanced minded. I like the fact that Camaros were marketed to muscle car minded people, but it maybe wasn't the best marketing plan in the world. When it comes down to it I guess I feel like the Mustang is a V6 first and made into something it is not. Where as a Camaro was like a Z28 or SS first and could second as a V6. Once again not any fact, just my opinion. I could go on and on as you can tell by my long posts but I think we agree more than disagree and you have some very good points. Lets just hope that GM takes a little bit of a hint from Ford on marketing but just not too much. Like you stated earlier about being intimated that there being a alot of teenage girls driving a camaro. I don't think thats the case. It just that you make certain comprises when you market a car to everybody. If all young girls start liking muscle car styling then thats great. I just think that you can't make a car that please everybody and I would rather a 2007 camaro be more geared to muscle car than sporty v6 type car. There has to be a fine balance. Lets pray they find it for the sake of the Camaro.

 

Oh and one more thing. I don't agree that each year Mustang is equal to each year Camaro. Just not true. Ford was dominant from what early 80's to 1992 and I will agree was a better made car and faster than everything but the Iroc. 1993 to 1997 belongs to Camaro hands down. Mustang had very weak 5.0 and 4.6 offerings these years. 1998 Brought the very nice LS1 camaros that I might add respond very well to mods. Ford in 1997 or 1998 had the twin overhead cam 4.6 Cobra I think? Correct me if I am wrong. 305 hp. I still beat all that I raced, but still fast. 1999 was the new body style for ford and this brought the Cobra that had to be recalled for lack of power. Very shameful. Until the 2001 or 02 385 hp Cobra. Where they more than made up for it. But like I said was getting more in the vettes price range. So I would give the late 90's to Camaro. From 01 and with Camaro's going away Ford was dominant I will have to say. Even though the 4.6 in the base GT was still on the weak side. Of couse till current Mustang wins by default not that they have slackened any on the power. But as of current the Mustang to me, like I stated previously, has been a v6 that was made into something else. The new one not as much so. It having a lower stance and more muscle car look. I really do like it. But it still has some qualities that hint to a V6 car. But so will the 2007 camaro I am sure. I just can't wait till the next round of Camaro vs Mustang. Its been a good battle so far. But hey aren't the imports the real enemy . But one final point. We wouldn't be hear chating if we weren't fans of whatever year Camaro we may have and not of that year Mustang as much. Not to say we don't like Mustangs we just chose the Camaro for whatever personal reason. Thats good enough for me. Bring on the 700 hp 2007 z28

 

V6 mustang commercial? Don’t remember ever seeing it. I remember seeing the z28 and firebird commercials in the 90’s (loved both, especially firebird), but don’t recall seeing a mustang commercial period. It’d be lame of them to even feature a v6 model in their commercial. Only mustang commercial that I can recall are the more recent ones and they’ve all been GT’s. The field of dreams one with McQueen and GT and the other one where the GT’s exhaust is playing the national anthem.

As far as being marketed to young men, both mustang and camaro are since both have a predominantly male consumer base. These are the people that make up the bulk of the enthusiasts and who tend to be the most loyal of the consumers. While they probably were marketed to young men (young guys love fast cars), Camaro buyers (those who registered NEW camaro’s under their name anyways) had an average age north of 40 years old and had an annual household income of around 60-65k and the mustang has similar #’s as well. I don’t know about you but 40 years of age isn’t exactly my idea of “young” . Not too many single under 25’ers can afford a z28/SS outright or afford the insurance premiums and so the whole age thing makes sense. Sadly, they stopped becoming “youth” cars a while back. Todays youth cars are Civic Si’s, SRT-4’s, and Cobalt SS’s.

Yes, a broad spectrum and consumer base is what has made the mustang popular and a good seller throughout the years. Perhaps one of the few cars that can appeal to a 16 year old girl and a 60 year old die-hard muscle head at the same time. I see that as a GOOD thing, and the variety in the lineup is what makes this all possible. That little 16 year old girl can get her cute little 193hp v6 mustang and that muscle head can get his pavement pounding 13 sec 305hp mach-1 or new GT or a 12 second 390hp Cobra (soon to be 420hp+). Compromised? Not as much as just really good model planning. And with really good model planning, there's no reason why the 5th gen couldn't appeal to the masses. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gens f-bodies did a real good job of selling/appealing to the masses and all were excellent products in their own right and so why couldn't the 5th gen have mass appeal as well?

And no Ford exec here ( $$I wish$$). Just a guy who has owned a Ford, a GM, a DCX, and a couple of imports. I just try to be as an objective as I can.

 

I agree with appealing to the massess only to a point. But compromise is the name of the game when you do this. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't want the 5th gen Camaro to compromise any more than is has too to become a stable and marketable car. Say what you will that Ford didn't compromise a little bit with previous Mustangs but every manufacturer does it. I'm sure the designer if he had it his way would build an all glass top, 1000 hp, top of the line, etc. car if he could but reality steps in. So bottom line is I believe the Camaro was slightly more true to its muscle car heritage than Mustang and the Mustang did a better job of marketing itself. Period. You can't disagree with that. Well maybe you can. Just my opinion and maybe a Mustang owner would disagree with this but that is how I see it.

The over 40 crowd is greatly influenced by sons/daughters/nephews/nieces/etc. on what they buy or what is considered cool. I remember being 18 when the 1993 Z28 came out and when I saw somebody driving one I said there goes one of those rich SOB's . But that didn't make me dream any less. Plus us kids, if I can call myself that anymore, drive the resell value of these cars. I think that has some influence over the initial sell. Graham also had a good point that your numbers are probably a little off because alot of parents buy these cars for their sons/daughters. Lots of spoiled kids now adays. Case in point my 38 year old friend just bought a 2004 gt for his 16 year old son and a 2004 convertible for his 14 year old daughter. Two more to chalk up to a near 40 year old man. In fact I think his father in law may have actually bought them. So make that a 60 year old man. Im not trying to disagree with your numbers but since you have access to alot of numbers try and find how many Mustangs/Camaros where bought as presents or future presents for younger people. Might help explain the numbers a little bit.

So anyway lets go jump on a post that we can actually disagree with somebody on. I can't argue too much with your numbers because I'm too lazy too look them up so I just have to agree with them for the most part. I have loved the Camaro and this little discussion has helped me really understand why. The new Mustang, even though I think the new v6 is hideous, is really growing on me because I feel like it has stayed more true to its heritage of a musclecar. Go Ford and hopefully go Chevy. Like I said the next round should be a good one.

 

kc, you just contradicted yourself. You say this in your first paragraph.......and this in your last paragraph. So which is it???

As a point of interest, I own one of those original Pony cars/ Muscle cars (a 1968 L78 Camaro SS). The truth of the Pony car/ Muscle car has always been a lower powered base model, which provides the bulk of the sales volume, and allows the manufacturer to build the high horsepower cars. Just as most original Mustangs were straight 6's, so were most original Camaros. It is just the way that market is. You will see that the Camaro has been less compromised throughout the years because you have one, and are a Camaro fan............... whereas the Mustang owner will probably think the exact opposite. Myself, I think they have both compromised equally............. one more in one generation........... and the other more in another generation.

 

Lightning Gal, Duh. I think the NEW mustang is truer to its original heritage. The NEW mustang. I will say it one more time. In the past I believe the Camaro has stayed more true to its muscle car heritage. Yes there has always been V6 or straight 6 Camaros and Mustangs. I have never claimed that it is reality to have all V8 Camaros or Mustangs. So lets drop this point. But if there is one thing that has kept the Mustang alive for so long and even the Camaro it has been there power. So let me ask you this Lightning Gal, when you restore the SS are you gonna put a straight 6 back in it. Probably not. Why does everybody collect the V8 cars and not the 6 cars as much. HMMMMMMMMMMMM. Maybe that is the point I am trying to get at. I have owned 5 Camaros, 1 Chevelle, 3 Fords (one a mustang) and so on. So which came first? The chicken or the egg? I have had 5 Camaros because I like them better, I like them better because I think there better. No brainer. Thats why I have one now. I would like to have a new Mustang like I have said a few times. If I get around to driving one I may even like it better than my Camaro. So no I did not contradict myself. New mustang good. 93 to new Mustang not as good. As far as your second paragraph goes just read all the past posts. You are rehashing exactly what I and almost everybody else has pretty much been saying. But I do agree and have stated previously that both the Camaro and Mustang have had their years of compromise. I can admit looking through rose colored glasses to a point but consider myself pretty objective to any brand car. Read one of the many pony car history books and they will point out the compromises that each brand has made to get the car to market. But like anything its all about money. Mustang is and has been the better seller of the two for sometime. My question to you is - Better Marketing? Better Product? Or as I have tried to make the point is it more of a compromise of Muscle Car heritage just to sell a car? Nothing wrong with that. Money is what makes the world go around. I can't fool myself into thinking there is somebody at Chevrolet sitting around saying "hey lets just forget about money and make the fastest and best looking 200? whatever Camaro Z28 and screw marketing it to the general public". Not gonna happen. Only in my dreams. If 2007 brings a "sell out" of a Camaro, FWD, Weak on power, bubble shaped or whatever it may be I will be driving a Mustang and may still if they wait to long. So unless we want to do a year by year comparison and lets say we have a score sheet with different columns of attributes. Power, Style, Price, Handling, etc. and then do a total to see who wins each year and total up to see who won each year. I don't really want to get into that. In my opinion the Camaro over the last 15 years would probably win but there are so many subjective attributes like style, etc. and how to score each attribute that nobody would ever agree. Well I think we have beaten this topic to death and now Im exhausted. Next topic please?