'66 PONTIAC Le Mans
http://www.cars-on-line.com/7600/66lemans7625-A.jpg

'66 PONTIAC GTO
http://www.cars-on-line.com/2sdirectory/66gto5686-A.jpg

GTO's have always looked similar to other pontiac cars. It the ballz under the hood that count.

All pontiacs of this era had similar grilles.

 

Hey, why don't you continue reading my post after that comment; I elaborated and answered your question. It's obvious your the one sniffing for little soundbytes to blow up on--"see, I told ya so! I said GTO, not this kind of car!" I knew it would be coming when I typed that sentence. Thanks for not disappointing.

Regardless, majority like this new incarnation, think the name fits, and don't see the need for such extreme overprotection of the GTO moniker.

Your word of caution is overstated. What are all of us so "subliminally frustrated" about? We're paranoid about not having another performance car and are jumping on the closest thing we can get? Others have listed the large number of cars on the horizon in this segment. I don't think anyone is panicking. Being a fan of performance cars in general, whichever car I go with next will have to earn my dollar and will not be selected on name alone. Maybe you're just overly conscious (or even subliminally ) of the fact that manufacturers rely on name recognition for some of their cars? "Pimping it out" would be tacking GTO onto a S/C Grand Am or Bonneville. The car receiving this designation couldn't be more fitting.

We all appreciate your enthusiasm for muscle cars, even if it is to the extreme right of the situation. Unfortunately, most of us see eye-to-eye with the guys calling the shots on this one.

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

 

That was then this is now. It should be unique looking especially for a return after all these years.

------------------
Camaro/Chevrolet crazy F-Body lunatic.

"The new GTO, the Grand Prix/Am of musclecars." http://oz.uc.edu/~padgetjr/compare.jpg

 

Jerry, I did read your whole post as I do every time, and I did so with an open mind. But IMHO, you did not answer the question poised. "Who wouldn't welcome a car like this back into GM's US lineup?" is not an answer. Nowhere else in your entire post did you give a name or group that actually requested a car named "GTO". In fact, you wrote, "Most of all, I think GM wanted another "GTO" as evident by the '99 concept." Yeah, I agree. It seems that is exactly the case - screw what the public wants, screw what the collectors want, screw what we want, we'll get what they(GM) want us to have - as usual.

And being the armchair quarterback that you make me out to be, I'll offer that this same attitude was present during the "reintroductions" and subsequent redesigns of the Nova, Impala, Malibu, Monte Carlo, and how many others a few years back. Boy, am I glad we didn't "overprotect" those names... I'm sure proud of them as they stand now.


You are on the cusp of seeing a car that we all are passionate about go away... indefinitely. Even if most here act like they are living with it - I bet it really bothers them - hell, I don't own one but I'm deeply wissed about it. If you don't/won't miss it when it's gone, then why are you even coming to this board? All I am trying to point out is that you should expend energy trying to make a change in GM's philosophy, not trying to "accomodate" or "be happy with" their offerings to you.

As for your "large number of cars on the horizon in this segment...", get ready for lots more copy/paste designs and conservative approaches like this GTO/Monaro one. You are giving GM your stamp of approval for this technique right here. Hope one of 'em isn't the F5 my friend.

I wonder if anybody "saw eye-to-eye with the guys calling the shots on this one" when the F4 was being introduced? Real smash hit that was, eh? Yup, the General always knows best. So nobody else can see this pattern of "I'll take whatever the General offers me."? Wow. Hard to see how the F4 ended up like it did, huh.



[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 28, 2002).]

 

Wow, thanks for taking all of my comments pertaining to the circumstances of the GTO and making generalizations that apply to all of GM's decisions.

My feelings on the fourth gen leaving? I'm have some fond memories, but I'm ready for it. I would like to have seen GM prepared to offer an F5 without hiatus, but I want a better car and there was nowhere else to go with the current offering. That is why I am in the "5th gen forum" of this site; I'm waiting for news of an improved, even better performing next generation Camaro and hopefully Firebird.

I think GM itself is an adequate answer to "who asked for it?". It's always their decision on what cars they make. I'm sure there are groups of GTO enthusiasts that will welcome this car's return and have been clamoring for it for years. I don't know what point you're trying to make. Everyone was content with letting the GTO lay to rest? No one wants it to come back? That's what you're saying with "who asked for it?".

 

Because GTO does not look like a Grand Prix, this is what I don't agree with. And virtually in every post from people who don't like GTO is mainly due to reasons that it looks like Grand Prix/Grand Am.

I don't bash people, I bash the complaints that we keep getting about essentially the same thing. We have heard those complaints many times already, yet it seems that they never die.

I thought I came out pretty clear on where I stand on this issue.

 

Tell me, what is wrong with this Monaro? Is this something that the public and enthusiasts DO NOT WANT? Did they ask for something else?

Did they not ask for a rear wheel drive car?
Did they not ask for V8 engine and good tranny?
Did they not ask for awesome handling and IRS?
Did they not ask that the car would have better ergonomics?
Did they not ask for an actual, real back seat?

I will repeat as I said before - this car will be an awesome performer. Everyone would love the car if it didn't carry GTO name. Now because GM decided to brand the car as GTO, all of the sudden this turns into hate GM?

The only reason I agree that GM should've named this car some other name is ONLY to please the whiners who can't stand GTO logo on this name. As you know, GTO logo stirs much controversy, and GM could have anticipated that.

At the same time, wait for a couple of years. If this car will be accepted, if the public truly falls in love with it as with original GTO - what will happen then?

I don't have any doubts that this upcoming GTO can deliver to its name.

 

Jerry,
I'm all squared-up with you, and it's good on my side - I hope so with you too.

I really don't mean to sound like I'm on a rag or something over this topic. I also don't want to sound like I'm a smart-alick know-it-all, especially here in GM-land, because I'm not that kind of guy. I'm just trying to point out some things to you guys that you might not otherwise see being insiders of GM that you are - kind of like the old "rose-colored glasses" thing. But let's be honest, something needs to change in GM's current process, don't you think?

I am an engineer. That makes me somewhat conservative, a stickler for details, and morally charged to do what's "right", not just "OK" or "good enough", no matter what it is. You have barely seen my passion displayed with this GTO-thing here... can you imagine my tenacity against Ford when the Mustang was on the line?!?! This is what it's gonna take (from every one of us) to steer the General in a new direction. At least we all have a good start on the inside with Lutz' new mentality, but he really can't do it all alone - the public must help/guide him.

Here's my version...
That is why I am in the "5th gen forum" of this site; I'm here to help forge a new process for GM/musclecar enthusiasts to be heard, and to help develop the best possible next-generation Camaro and Firebird.

I honestly appreciate your thoughts and opinions. It is obvious you have passion for the topic or you wouldn't spend this much effort writing about it - I admire that. Thanks for a respectable debate.

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 28, 2002).]

 

Let me clarify something. ALL of the original musclecars [except the corvette, and a few specialty cars] were based on plain-jane daily drivers. GTO-Lemans, Skylark GS - option pkg. on skylark, SS was another option pkg. on chevelles. So, this concept is nothing new, and it continues today: GTP - Grand prix, Z28 SS - Option pkg. for camaro.

Again, the choices are: 1) Make the GTO into yet another model in the Pontiac lineup, or 2) Make it a limited-edition specialty car. GM has already chosen #2 in production quantity, but styling-wise they have chosen #1. With low-volume specialty cars it makes sense to give them the individualty and independence from their brother & sister models. For mass-volume cars, brand identification and association is key.


The "flagship" vehicles within a particular brand always tend to be the most techniclly advanced, most powerful, and leads the styling upgrades for the remainder of the line. EX: Exterior styling of the flagship chenges 1st, remainder of the line follows suit.

If Pontiac intends this to be a "Flagship" then it's styling should indicate what's coming in the next few model years for the rest of the line. [This also assumes Pontiac is integrating this into their model lineup]
I don't see that in the styling of this car. It appears to be the same themes as current models.

Another point: You mentioned the GAP in production of the vehicle. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT. It has been mentioned [myself included] that GM has bastardized nameplates of classic cars, but it reality, those cars never TRULY died. The Impala, bonneville, monte carlo, grand prix, camaro/firebird, mustang have always been around, so they naturally evolved with the rest of the models. NO ONE complained when the Impala was a 4-door tugboat w/NO 2-door models offered and a WHIMPY 305 V8 or pittiful V-6 as the only engine options!

BUT the GTO is a TOTALLY different story. The last memories of the GTO were FOND memories! [Except 73-74, we tend to forget those years!]. That car lived up to it's heritage RIGHT UNTIL THE END!

So, does it not make sense to pay tribute to a car that went out like Micheal Jordan left the NBA [the 1st time] with full glory and honor! Or should we turn the GTO's return into Jordan's return to the NBA with the Wizards!!! Interesting at first, but NOT WHAT MOST EXPECTED!!!!!!
And now most pay little attention to his performances....



------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

 

As I've been reading & posting on this GTO topic, I start to wonder: How many of the people who are posting are #1) even old enough to remember musclecars [I don't count in that category myself] or #2) Have ever driven or rode in a musclecar? What about the GTO? Anybody owned/driven/rode in a GTO?
Does anyone posting really know about the magic of a musclecar, what it's like to drive a car w/ 350+HP and NO little convienences like power steering, power brakes, NO disc brakes up front [that's a REAL challenge], NO ABS to help with driving boo-boo's, NO A/C, NO P/W, P/L, T-tops, No FM radios, etc. etc.

What it feels like to stomp the pedal down at 55 and have the back end break LOOSE on you? To get 7 MPG? [not good]. To feel the body twist when you get on it at the light? The exaust note, engine sound, the sound of MONSTER back barrels opening up? Or TWO MORE CARBURATORS opening up when you stomp on it?

And the GTO is the one to thank for all of that [not LITERALLY, but it did start a massive movement].

I really don't think that the people posting have a good feel, or passion, for what a musclecar is all about.


------------------
'69 GTO 400 H.O. 350 HP
'96 Bonneville 231 S.D.
'96 Sunfire 2.4L H.O.

 

How many people asked for a Mustang Mach 1? How many asked for a new T-bird that looks like a 55 model???




------------------
Branden-Founder www.GMInsidenews.com
The #1 GM News Site on the Net!
1995 Firebird A4
White with red leather
1979 Firebird Formula SOLD!!! 8/2001
Visit my homepage!

 

???? I challenge you to score the "pros' - vs - "cons' on who is doing the name calling here...I'd personally like to see the level of maturity raised....this can and should be a calm debate.

You can't be serious......it looks nearly identical to the GP....I know, I own one!

I'm going to say this one last time....my discontent stems from the obvious LACK of effort/talent/desire on GM's part to put even the slightest of heritage styling cues in this car, short of the twin grilles........much less using a dated 5 year old design!

I say this as much as to my own memories of the original GTO's as I do in hopes that IF & WHEN we ever get a 5th gen Camaro they do more that slap the emblems on a similar non-descript plain brown wrapper, "corporate design styling". Does it really make you happy to see cars that simply look like Pontiacs and not a "model specific" Pontiac?

I truly do hope and believe that, from what I've heard, the Monaro/GTO will be a world class car with performance to match.....shoulda' spent more effort on the styling though...even if it was the hood/front fascia area.

[This message has been edited by Doug Harden, Pres CICC (edited June 28, 2002).]

 

Great point!

If styling went down that road we could just call all Pontiac's "Pontiac Small", "Pontiac Medium", "Pontiac Large".

There is something to be said for brand identity... to a point

I think the Grand Prix, the Firebird, the Bonneville, and Grand Am, and the Sunfore all "look like a Pontiac"... but they don't look too much like each other...

 

That describes a muscle car of days long gone by. Do you think that any car, produced either now or in the future, will essentially go back to stone age? No manufacturer will attempt to satisfy small percentage of POTENTIAL customers where they will lose money.

Essentially, my understanding is that a number of those who complain about GTO complain because the car does not resemble the features of the muscle cars of the 60's and 70's. Well, airplanes in world war 2 were far different from those of world war 1. There were pilots who always said that to fly a real plane was to fly a sopwith camel, with no brakes, open cockpit, and when you do a loop, the engine cuts out because fuel doesn't flow into the engine. That was a thrill, that was excitement. The newer, modernized planes provided a different experience. Just like F16 and F18 provide a much different experience than world war 2 planes. Yet a WWI plane was a fighter plane, and WWII was a fighter plane. So is F16. 4th gen fbody is a muscle car, so is current Mustang. The Monaro is a muscle car. But a different, evolved muscle car.

What many have a passion for is no longer produced. Nor will it be produced. There is no longer any market for it. Cars, industry evolves. People of present day have different desires, wishes than those from a decade, or 2 or 3 ago. Tastes change, and what people try to look for in a car changes.

I'm sure that when cars go to alternative fuels in the future, such as fuel cell, many will be dissatisfied and cry for gasoline cars. What will change? Nothing. It is not advantageous for anyone to keep using gasoline when fuel cell (or other technology) will replace it.

I also do not understand how some here exclaim that GM let everyone down, and by listening it seems that you think that GM is introducing an inferior product that nobody asked for, that it didn't listen to its customers. This car is everything we would ask for, save some smaller few details and the price. If you can't see that, remove GTO name from it and view it as Monaro. If the whole GTO name completely changes perception of the car for y ou, well, too bad, what can you do...

[This message has been edited by muckz (edited June 28, 2002).]

 

Everyone raise your hand if you own a 2004 Pontiac GTO:
Oops, I see no hands. So you can't claim to have done a side-by-side comparison of 2 real cars.

Raise your hands if you've seen a 2004 Pontiac GTO in person, apart from that silly *hand-drawn* sketch (it's not computerized) :
Hmm.. no hands.

Raise your hands if you know for a fact what the final 2004 Pontiac GTO looks like at the front, rear, interior, hood, wheels, and other places where they are giving it GTO identity:
Once again no hands. Naturally, since we are talking about a car still being designed, a car that does not yet EXIST, a car which has been seen by maybe a dozen people on the globe. I challenge anyone to deny these facts without changing the subject.

Let's stop acting like Cornholio and wait for this destined success to arrive. The basics are there. The Monaro's performance is undeniable. The shape is sleek and intuitive (unlike some other disaster of a design going on a hiatus .. *cough* F4 *cough*). I have faith in PMD to do it right, as far as cosmetics and identity. Not only will it sell out completely, but it will be accepted as a true GTO. All these ridiculously long threads are based on a hand-drawn sketch from a bad angle. Get a grip people..

[This message has been edited by kizz (edited June 28, 2002).]