Yeah, like the PT Cruiser and New Beetle? We all know what happened to them after the novelty wore off. Which is exactly what retro is, a novelty. That same Thunderbird also only comes in an automatic, runs high 15 qtr miles and not tuned to be a sporty drive at all. Just something to cruise around in and turn heads until everyone's seen it. Being such a devoted GTO fan, this is what you want? After reading all of those reviews, you should know the Monaro embodies everything the GTO is about and is a worthy of wearing the badge over here.

------------------
-JERRY-
'02 Impreza WRX
'88 Fiero Formula
'90 Sunbird LE For Sale
Formerly owned: '93 Firebird Formula

 

Allow me to interject one little difference in the models to which you are refering.

The PTCruiser and Beetle are both full continuous production vehicles which are intended to sell as many units as possible, based on demand and orders. The "GrandGTO" (I better learn to type this), is currently a 20K unit, fixed volume, market entry car.

AND AGAIN, WHO THE FLIP ASKED FOR A "GTO"??? Apparently, the same mystical guy who asked for it to be a full-blown retro-design from scratch too.

PS - as for the T-bird, I don't think anybody has really ever touted it as a high-performance car, the Mustang has that role at Ford. But it is still a sporty RWD V8 with a drop-top!

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

 

Well, this new Monaro will have performance much better than Fbody in terms of acceleration (at least it should), especially in handling, and braking.

I am really looking forward to this car, it will be the best performer (next to Corvette) of all GM cars currently produced.

 

What a whiner!

Given the schedule and the quick response GM made to bring this car over, there isn't any time / money to invest into this project. Besides, they do plan on a limited run of these cars, so it does not make sense to invest tens if not hundreds of millions to re-style the car.

Perhaps I will agree with you on the GTO name - they should've simply not used it, that's all.

The car is a great package. It will be well received.

 

There aren't a lot of shmucks who complain, as a mattter of fact there are few. But the few shmucks who do complain (IZ28 one of them ) complain the loudest.

Besides, you don't read much rationale in those complaints, it's simply a continous, repetitive use of a single statement, by a volume of which the schmuks hope to establish a point.

Very equivalent of me saying that space shuttle looks like a commercial jet. And now imagine me repeating this in every post, about 10 times. And if you bring in any counterpoint thoughts, I will simply say "we want a space rocket/transport/ship, not a BOEING." End of reasoning. You get the picture of what is really going on :wink:

 

I don't know if I'm reading the pulse of these posts correctly, but I get the feeling that some people drove themselves to the point such denial that they view Holden GTO as only a remote V-8 RWD performance...

I also get the feeling that some people won't accept anything new unless it shares all styling and body parts with its original sibling.

 

My goodness, just because it has a similar front grille and headlights, all of the sudden these are 2 identical cars.

Ever wonder why BMW 3 series and 5 series looks similar? Or why do all Audis have similar looking front end? Yet you won't be confusing Audi A8 for Audi A6. You won't go complaining that "why on earth did they bring A8 if it looks exactly like A6."

Brand recognition is a good thing. And this coming Pontiac GTO will deliver many things that will bring the image of the Pontiac up.

 

First off, I said "all their cars have similarities". I did not say "looks just like", as you imply with your 1st statement about the Mustang. Nor did I talk about the degree of similarities. Just that there are some.
Maybe the Fords don't look similar. Maybe that's their problem; why they are having a tough time this year with sales. They don't have any brand recognition. Unless you knew Fords, you wouldn't know what kind of car it was (if you weren't a car person).That's a whole other discussion that I'm not going to get into but just to say that check out buisiness mags & papers. They are all saying Ford isn't doing too well this year.
And their trucks all look the same. It's hard to tell an Explorer from a Expedition nowadays.
Lincolns all have similar styling cues. That big, toothy chrome grille and the big chrome liscense plate surround.

And I know the T-bird looks nothing like the rest of their cars. But what's going to happen when everybody sees this car on a regular basis. It's gonna be old news and it will fade away. Or will they redesign using styling from the '58? Retro is just a fad.

 

This is not a slam, but a friendly debate, so look at this that way.

Your entire argument as I understand it is that it doesn't look like a Pontiac Tempest or Pontiac LeMans (I'm no longer calling it a GTO look because it was a package on those cars). If GTO had continued over the past 30 years instead of being MIA all this time, do you feel it would look like a car of the 60's?

Pontiac has changed over the years. Grand Prix is the car that looked much like a fancy Tempest once, and look how it has changed. In your T-Bird example (which though I think is a nice design, I prefer the sinister look of the MN12 SCs), Thunderbird was it's own car like with it's own design being a separate car line from anything else. I feel that is what you and a few others are not taking into account. GTO was an option package on an existing car like the SS to Chevelle, the R/T to Charger, the GT to Torino, the GNX to Cutlass, etc.

It seems that what you are asking for is a mid-60s Pontiac Tempest retro-car or a car that flies in the face of Pontiac's current family of design. Before you slam the idea of a design family, look at Pontiac's 1965 lineup. This isn't a concept that just popped up in recent years.

As far as the public taking whatever scraps are thrown at them, I feel that is a ridiculous statement, and here's why. Currently Mustang is available & selling very well. If you hurry, you still may find a dealer with a new Z28 around. GTO isn't even out yet.

However, by the time GTO is in dealers, the new Mustang will be only months away, Chrysler will have it's 1st LX cars out, Mazda will have a modest priced 4 passenger RWD performance car, as will Infinity & Nissan. All will be competing in very close to the same market.

So the idea that somehow the only reason I or any other person willing to spend the next 4 to 5 years making car payments to buy a GTO is because GM starved us performance-wise, while other choices are & will be readily available (now & in the future) isn't very honest.

I said it before & I'll say it again. Styling is subjective. I think Mustang is gaudy & a tad overstyled. But I apprieciate it & praise Ford for investing to keep Mustang fresh & realize that at least Team Mustang is doing things right at Ford. I'm not going to slam Mustangs (I do that on the street ). But I can separate my taste & realize what a car is about.

The whole point is when we look at historic names, we need to look at what the original was about. Some cars like Mustang was about high style for little money. Thunderbird was about luxury & sportiness. GTO was about putting a monster motor in a lightweight economy car. Looks change over the years, yet Mustang kept it's purpose (though I question the 71-73 versions), T-Bird kept it's purpose despite a variety of incarnations. And based on GTO's original purpose, it is on target.

Yes it looks like a Grand Prix. In pictures it has the profile of a Cavalier. In light of the GTO's that looked like a boring economic Tempest with a blackout grill, I'd say it carrys the same spirit as the originals.

Just the same, didn't virtually everyone here praise the swoopy, clean look of the G-Force (a thinly veiled look of the next Grand Prix) on this site no more than 5 months ago?

 

Actually this was a great post, and it gives some insight where most con are coming from.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your side so well.

 

QUOTE BY guionM:
"didn't virtually everyone here praise the swoopy, clean look of the G-Force (a thinly veiled look of the next Grand Prix) on this site no more than 5 months ago?"

Yes they did. And that car can't hold a candle to the new GTO (in both styling & performance). I feel the G-force is not very attractive.

 

I was waiting for the raionalization that those are higher production number cars, but the principle is the same. Remember the Plymouth Prowler? Besides, retro is still not for everyone and one vehicle is on the way already in the SSR. And the fact it is limited in production is more of a short term issue. Once this stop-gap is filled, I'm sure GM would welcome a car they can sell in higher numbers. Then what? You try to back peddle from retro to mass appeal?

As far as who asked for it? Who wouldn't welcome a car like this back into GM's US lineup? They had no performance car at all beyond the Corvette. The Monaro was available and made a lot of sense for the situation. It was a resurrection of a muscle car in itself, so the usage of GTO is fitting. Having a lot of recognizable brands is a strong point for GM, why shouldn't they use it? The application is right. This isn't comparable to the current usage of Impala. Most of all, I think GM wanted another "GTO" as evident by the '99 concept.

[This message has been edited by jrp4uc (edited June 27, 2002).]

 

And we will conclude this little iteration with the observation that...

it was called...G-FORCE!!!
it was not called...GTO!!!

Hope it was at least good exercise for you guys' fingers typing all that rhetoric about such an insignificant point. How does the G-Force have anything to do with GM pimping the GTO name?

[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

 

I repeat the original question... it is really a simple one IMHO...
WHO ASKED FOR A GTO? Not a "car like this", or "a performer of this level",
but a GTO by that name. Who ever asked for it?

To quote you verbatim; "Who wouldn't welcome a car like this back into GM's US lineup?"
I challenge you to prove that any of us (who oppose the use of GTO badges) have not been anything but complimentary about the car itself. Awesome drivetrain and handling, nice refinements, etc. SHOW ME WHERE ONE OF US HAS SLANDERED THIS CAR FOR ANYTHING, OTHER THAN THE NAME IT IS BEING GIVEN. AND REMEBER - our critique of the front end/styling is based on the name it was given, not the design in and of itself. If it wasn't being called a GTO, we'd have no problems with nose/styling as it is.

OK - Now, here's the answer to the magical question above...
NO-FREAKIN'-BODY ASKED FOR A GTO!!!!!!

GM - in it's ultimate wisdom, (the same wisdom that gave you 421 FWD V6 models next year and NO Camaro), decided FOR us all to use(er make that "PIMP") the GTO name for economic benefit.
THAT IS MY PROBLEM - NOT THE CAR. Is this too difficult a concept to comprehend?

I swear, you guys can't even see that you are really taking out some kind of subliminal frustrations on those of us who still are thinking clearly and with passion about your present and future GM products. Living only for today is not always wise, guys!


[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited June 27, 2002).]

 

muckz,
If you agree about the name issue, (which BTW is waaayyy cool ) why did you write all the other stuff about "whiners" and what a "great performer" it is and all?

I'm glad you see the point about name pimpin', but then to bash the people who feel the same way is like playing on both teams or selling your sister or something. I don't get it.