First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe PPV
01-07-2011, 01:22 PM
#46
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Fairfax Station, VA. Formally Long Island :(
Posts: 1,398
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
I'm refering to how so many people today have this tendacy to look at RWD as an incompetent way of getting around in anything but dry sunny weather. Then they throw some extreme examples to back up that view.
You just did it above.
You pointed out that people died because they weren't accessible by RWD vehicles.
If we are talking about drivers being stranded, then they wouldn't be accessible by FWD vehicles either since they most likely were driving them and were themselves stranded.
If we are talking people stuck in unheated homes, then it isn't RWD cars that caused them to die being stuck in unheated homes did.
If we are talking about simply accessing individuals in emergency situations, they why not simply ban all 2WD police cars (regardless as to front or rear drive) and go 100% AWD SUV in law enforcement across the board and equpt them with big high traction off road tires, which seems to be the logical resolution of your point?
That way you would completely solve the issue of being stuck and unprepared in "emergency" situations because you'd have AWD vehicles ready for any emergency with high ground clearence that would clear the many feet of snow the east got last year, floods, and any other natural disasters.
The reason I would imagine that doesn't happen is that 99.9% of law enforcement usage of vehicles don't require an off road vehicle. I also imagine the lives you save in having a quick, stable, well balenced 2 wheel drive car save many, many, many times over any lives saved having something on the level of a Humvee as a police vehicle.
No one said anything about worse case emergency vehicles. But these vehicles have to be specialized because they simply are not the best choice for all purposes. Every agency I know operates on a tight taxpayer funded budget, they have to put most all transportation resources on the vehicles that do the best all round job, and have a couple of vehicles around for those extreme cases.
There's a reason the rear wheel drive Crown Victoria, and now the Charger are taking up just about 4/5 of all police vehicle purchases. There's also a reason that GM is importing the rear drive Caprice to compete in the law enforcement market.
Roads aren't buried in snow most of the year, even in the Northeast. Even when they are, any snow that will strand a RWD car will also strand a FWD.
Unfortunately, today, so many people have been so far removed from rear drive vehicles that they simply don't know any better than to look at RWD as dangerous and useless in rain or snow.
I guess years of having RWD primarily on nothing more than high powered cars with the worse possible tires for snow (extremely wide, asymetrical, performance tired designed to throw rain away from the center of the tread, while forgetting that a thing called snow tires exist) has created this RWD=DEATH mentality...... outside of police and those who learned to drive in 60s and 70s era RWD cars through the hills of Pennsylvania and West Virginia, and did so.......all year round!!
You just did it above.
You pointed out that people died because they weren't accessible by RWD vehicles.
If we are talking about drivers being stranded, then they wouldn't be accessible by FWD vehicles either since they most likely were driving them and were themselves stranded.
If we are talking people stuck in unheated homes, then it isn't RWD cars that caused them to die being stuck in unheated homes did.
If we are talking about simply accessing individuals in emergency situations, they why not simply ban all 2WD police cars (regardless as to front or rear drive) and go 100% AWD SUV in law enforcement across the board and equpt them with big high traction off road tires, which seems to be the logical resolution of your point?
That way you would completely solve the issue of being stuck and unprepared in "emergency" situations because you'd have AWD vehicles ready for any emergency with high ground clearence that would clear the many feet of snow the east got last year, floods, and any other natural disasters.
The reason I would imagine that doesn't happen is that 99.9% of law enforcement usage of vehicles don't require an off road vehicle. I also imagine the lives you save in having a quick, stable, well balenced 2 wheel drive car save many, many, many times over any lives saved having something on the level of a Humvee as a police vehicle.
No one said anything about worse case emergency vehicles. But these vehicles have to be specialized because they simply are not the best choice for all purposes. Every agency I know operates on a tight taxpayer funded budget, they have to put most all transportation resources on the vehicles that do the best all round job, and have a couple of vehicles around for those extreme cases.
There's a reason the rear wheel drive Crown Victoria, and now the Charger are taking up just about 4/5 of all police vehicle purchases. There's also a reason that GM is importing the rear drive Caprice to compete in the law enforcement market.
Roads aren't buried in snow most of the year, even in the Northeast. Even when they are, any snow that will strand a RWD car will also strand a FWD.
Unfortunately, today, so many people have been so far removed from rear drive vehicles that they simply don't know any better than to look at RWD as dangerous and useless in rain or snow.
I guess years of having RWD primarily on nothing more than high powered cars with the worse possible tires for snow (extremely wide, asymetrical, performance tired designed to throw rain away from the center of the tread, while forgetting that a thing called snow tires exist) has created this RWD=DEATH mentality...... outside of police and those who learned to drive in 60s and 70s era RWD cars through the hills of Pennsylvania and West Virginia, and did so.......all year round!!
01-07-2011, 01:47 PM
#47
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 766
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
I guess years of having RWD primarily on nothing more than high powered cars with the worse possible tires for snow (extremely wide, asymetrical, performance tired designed to throw rain away from the center of the tread, while forgetting that a thing called snow tires exist) has created this RWD=DEATH mentality...... outside of police and those who learned to drive in 60s and 70s era RWD cars through the hills of Pennsylvania and West Virginia, and did so.......all year round!!
Of course back then, we'd intentionally fishtail on snowy roads and parking lots for the fun of it (also valuable emergency handling practice too). Traction control nannies take a lot of the fun out of winter driving IMO. I never went into the drain or off the road in a RWD car in the winter - I have in a FWD car though.
Last edited by SharpShooter_SS; 01-07-2011 at 01:49 PM.
01-28-2011, 04:59 PM
#48
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Arcadia, OK
Posts: 669
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
Video of the car being flogged by Phoenix PD...
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/28/v...ice/#continued
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/28/v...ice/#continued
01-31-2011, 04:52 PM
#49
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Okemos, MI
Posts: 9,490
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
You're correct that when ground clearance becomes an issue, everybody is screwed -- but in 5-6" of wet snow, FWD works great and RWD gets stuck easily.
Adding snow tires helps across the board and is therefore irrelevant.
01-31-2011, 07:17 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 9,710
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
It all depends on weight distribution. If more of the vehicle's mass is over the drive tires, then it will perform better in slippery conditions when compared to a similar vehicle with less of the vehicle's mass over the drive tires. However AWD or 4WD is always best in most conditions... except for fuel economy. 
02-01-2011, 01:00 AM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Pekin, IL, United States
Posts: 616
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
I disagree -- RWD is correct. While RWD is fun and viable for anyone who can drive, FWD can do things RWD cannot in slippery conditions.
You're correct that when ground clearance becomes an issue, everybody is screwed -- but in 5-6" of wet snow, FWD works great and RWD gets stuck easily.
Adding snow tires helps across the board and is therefore irrelevant.
You're correct that when ground clearance becomes an issue, everybody is screwed -- but in 5-6" of wet snow, FWD works great and RWD gets stuck easily.
Adding snow tires helps across the board and is therefore irrelevant.
Put a few sandbags or other weight over the back of a RWD vehicle and you take care of that problem. As long as I've got extra weight in the back, I'll take RWD over FWD any day of the week in snow. FWD sucks in snow, especially if you slip at all. Once you start sliding in a FWD vehicle, you're pretty much screwed. In fact, after an incident on the highway in a FWD Focus I had a few years ago, I'm never buying another FWD car for the rest of my life.
02-01-2011, 08:34 AM
#53
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Okemos, MI
Posts: 9,490
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
02-01-2011, 10:54 AM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,712
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
That's a partial truth as well. First, a tire only has x amount of traction to give. If it needs all its traction for acceleration, then there's little left for turning (or vice versa). Better to separate those two functions. Second, I like being able to control both ends of my car ... the rear with the gas pedal, the front with the steering wheel. Goosing the gas for a bit is a very effective way to rotate a car into the corner. Do that with a FWD vehicle, and you quickly overcome the tires' limited traction (see first point) and you end up plowing wide.
02-01-2011, 11:12 AM
#55
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 10,287
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
My Colorado Z71 with the G80 was great in RWD mode in the snow. Throw 100lbs. of weight at the back and it would probably be better than most FWD cars.
Aiming the drive wheels doesn't really help when they are spinning or the nose is sliding IMO. It could help with gaining traction if you are stuck though. I'd still prefer a RWD with a locking differential like the G80.
I find that most people that say RWD sucks in the snow are basing that opinion on driving a 2WD pickup with an open differential or a high power RWD car with tires not made for snow. Locking rear diff. is a $295 option on the 2WD Tahoe. For the money those vehicles cost they should really make it standard.
Aiming the drive wheels doesn't really help when they are spinning or the nose is sliding IMO. It could help with gaining traction if you are stuck though. I'd still prefer a RWD with a locking differential like the G80.
I find that most people that say RWD sucks in the snow are basing that opinion on driving a 2WD pickup with an open differential or a high power RWD car with tires not made for snow. Locking rear diff. is a $295 option on the 2WD Tahoe. For the money those vehicles cost they should really make it standard.
Last edited by Z28x; 02-01-2011 at 11:18 AM.
02-01-2011, 11:18 AM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: MD
Posts: 2,022
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
This has to do with weight distribution, not whether the vehicle is RWD or FWD. Since most FWD has a significant weight bias to the front of the vehicle, they typically have an advantage over a RWD vehicle that is more evenly balanced in its weight distribution when it comes to starting in snow.
Put a few sandbags or other weight over the back of a RWD vehicle and you take care of that problem.
Put a few sandbags or other weight over the back of a RWD vehicle and you take care of that problem.
)88 S10 with a manual trans and touring tires in places 4wd vehicles were getting stuck. It soldiered on without a hint of a problem. How? At least 1000lbs of snow in the bed. It pulled my father's modified Cherokee uphill on a street with over 2' of snow. He got stuck attempting to clear a path for the neighborhood.
02-01-2011, 11:31 AM
#57
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Okemos, MI
Posts: 9,490
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
That's a partial truth as well. First, a tire only has x amount of traction to give. If it needs all its traction for acceleration, then there's little left for turning (or vice versa). Better to separate those two functions. Second, I like being able to control both ends of my car ... the rear with the gas pedal, the front with the steering wheel. Goosing the gas for a bit is a very effective way to rotate a car into the corner. Do that with a FWD vehicle, and you quickly overcome the tires' limited traction (see first point) and you end up plowing wide.
Once you're moving, just don't do anything crazy and you'll be fine. Understeer in a FWD and throttle oversteer in a RWD are both controllable. You're welcome to have your preference, but personally, I'll take the car that can get moving in the first place.
02-01-2011, 11:38 AM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ontario
Posts: 2,712
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
You say you want a car that can get moving. Not me. I want a car that has superior control once under way. I want a car that will help prevent me from sliding off the road or into other objects. I figure that if it's so bad out that my RWD car won't get out of the driveway, I should be staying home anyhow.
Let me ask you this: if you could only afford two new snow tires for your car, do you put them on the front or the back? Is your answer different for FWD vs RWD?
02-01-2011, 11:42 AM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 9,710
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
02-02-2011, 12:56 PM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: TX Med Ctr
Posts: 4,000
Re: First Drive: The 2011 Chevy Caprice PPV - and some interesting info on the Tahoe
I guess I'm not being clear -- I'm talking about when the snow is piled deep (like it's going to be tomorrow morning in my area if the weather forecasters are correct). A FWD car has a substantially better chance of getting moving from a stop than a RWD car.
Once you're moving, just don't do anything crazy and you'll be fine. Understeer in a FWD and throttle oversteer in a RWD are both controllable. You're welcome to have your preference, but personally, I'll take the car that can get moving in the first place.
Once you're moving, just don't do anything crazy and you'll be fine. Understeer in a FWD and throttle oversteer in a RWD are both controllable. You're welcome to have your preference, but personally, I'll take the car that can get moving in the first place.
As far as trying to use thrust vectoring by turning the drive wheels, that is not really useful on a road. It has its use in loose surfaces, like a WRC on gravel, but a Civic on a snow covered road? How much loose snow do you think you have to throw out the back (or side) to significantly alter the momentum of the car? This isn't going to help you get moving forward much anyway. May help you bury the car though.