It isn't necessarilly a conspiracy theory if you can show that the psychology of an import buyer is typically different than the psychology of a domestic buyer.

I do not think there are conspiracies, but I do not think the results of owner surveys are worth more than toilet paper.

 

Okay, so you don't believe. And you're going to use that rationale to keep buying domestic. But the problem is, most thinking, reasoning, logical people are going to believe CR and I don't blame them. Buyers are influenced by their data and more and more die-hards like you are moving to the foreign side. My experience is that Toyota and Honda are built better. But I still buy GM for my own reasons, even though CR's figures back up my own anecdotal experiences.


And damn near everyone has had a hand at kicking the lawsuit can against CR. All of them have lost.

 

According to the Consumer reports magazine, the cunsumer satisfaction of the Matrix is higher, although Consumer reports says the Vibe is better then the matrix, Only because they compared the awd matrix vrs the fwd vibe, and the vibe got better gas mileage

 

That was a stupid thing to say. A simple DNA test would prove the first thing and documented medical analysis proves the 3rd. And I'd be willing to expose you to radiation to prove that it causes cancer. You're just being a smarta** with the 2nd.

I'm not willing to trust the research of others if I can't see all their work and how they came to their conclusion. You seem to be content with just the conclusion.

And I stand by it. CR is feeling the pressure from manufacturers and critics to start being more fair. That's why you're starting to see some foreign cars with bad marks and American cars with good marks.

My first theory makes perfect sense and I didn't shift anything. I was just making another point.

 

Not necesarilly. I'm probably more likely to buy a domestic than an import if all things are equal, but the final product is a pretty large factor in that decision.

I'm not a die hard. I was simply pointing out that consumer polls or surveys are not very good or scientific tools. CR gets 810,000 surveys back. How many surveys is that for each model? I believe the guideline is at least 100 per vehicle, which is almost certainly not going to provide any statistically significant data when you think about how many vehicles they sell in a year. What percentage of of vehicles in each line is actually represented by the responders? How significant is self selection in survey response, what are the confidence intervals, or p values for any of their conclusions? Are any of the conclusions based on data that is statistically significant? You don't have any problems with the fact that the surveys are only sent to subscribers and that only a fraction of those people become responders? Is it also not a big deal that severity of the problems is not accounted for in the survey?

In my experience there are thigns that Honda and Toyota screw together better and some things that they do not. However, even if I believed Toyota and Honda were the best (and many times I am inclined to agree that overall Toyota has the edge on everybody) it does not change my feelings about the validity of CR or any other customer survey based study.

If anyone that is a statistician would like to explain to me why CR results are valid, I will listen.

 

Consumer Reports is based on what a Consumer Reports... Correct?

In my humble opinion, people who buy domestic cars are more enthusiast, more picky, and more likly to complain.

This of course is from noticing my parents who get a toyota to get to point A to point B, and dont care that the sun visor raddles as u drive, they dont care that the radio buttons are crooked, etc... Although my dad did write a letter to Toyota when he had to replace the bald tires after 12k miles on the camry

Then my representation of Domestic owners, are those who are accually buying a car for power (these cars are less likely last due to added abuse), or usefullness... I just helped my buddy move, we filled his Jeep w/ boxes, filled his suburban w/ stuff then towed a 2 horse trailer (pretty loaded, suburban also blew a flat), filled his silverado and the car trailer, car trailer blew a flat on one trip.

When people want something that is going to do the job, the turn to the big 3, for big durrable trucks. my dad the biggest Toyota fan has a F350 to haul our 4 horse aluminum trailer (7500 lbs empty gooseneck) He said He would have got a GM truck because he thinks they are more reliable but didnt want to pay 10k more for it. Also would have prefered Deseil, but again didnt want to pay 5k for it.

Domestic cars in my opinion are stronger under the same conditions, but the drivers are different. How well does a toyota or a Honda last w/ a teenager behind the wheel? how well does a z28 last w/ a teenager behind the wheel?

 

uhmmmmm........not so fast........

First....(and I need to verify this---) I think that 810,000 surveys returned are surveys for everything. I got mine and it asked a gagillion questions about cars, toasters, air conditioners, dishwashers, etc. The questions, as I recall are "did you purchase one of these in the past year....two years.....etc"


Second......any time you have a 'voluntary' survey, it's going to be compromised.

Third......how do you explain the Corolla/Prizm disparity? Same plant...Prizm had over 200 engineering improvements. Yet look at the results over the past several years..... I remember looking at a study back when it was "Corolla/Nova"........seems the transaxle (Toyota) had an inherent whine.....anywhere from 47 to about 58mph......(and turning the radio up did not help because it was harmonic in nature).......funny thing: Toyota had very few repairs/warranty claims/complaints, yet Chevrolet was beseiged by repairs/warranty claims/complaints. Now......I realize that this is only one example.......but I think it illustrates that there COULD be a mindset that's going to be very very hard to change.

It's like the many conversations I've had over the years with people who do not know who I work for.........they'll wax poetic about a '79 Regal they owned ...drove it forever...got 'em thru thick and thin!!!!...finally got rid of it at oh, say, 135,000 miles....Then they tell you they have a Honda.......and when you ask why, they say "well, it's a very reliable/quality car!" .......and then when you bring the '79 Regal back into the discussion, they get this 'deer in the headlights' look......it's hard for them to justify suddenly. (and yes, I realize this is anectdotal...)

All that said, you are never going to change some peoples' opinions.......period.

 

nicely put, ever since my dad had a chevette he said its been decades and he still doesnt forgive GM for the lack of quality... but he was almost sworn never to buy another toyota after those tires went bald so quickly. but he's bought another since