So many of those "facts" are conveniently skewed in their wording as to paint a very one-sided picture that I don't even feel like beginning. I'm going to bed. Have fun with the circle jerk, guys.

 

If Scott did post this, then he officially lost all respect I have for him.
Don't think all Americans are so stupid that they will blindly swallow this BS because someone told them to. I guess by your line of thinking, I shouldn't buy a American car since we decimated the Native Americans, and look what America did to the African American. Also, please tell me how if I buy a German car I am supporting the *****. If this was something he said he should be very ashamed...

 

Let me clear a few things up........

I did not post that article on this site. Someone else did.

I do not approve of the author's use of the Bataan Death March. I think it dishonors our veterans.....and even more so, those who lost their lives in that autrocity. World War II ended over a half a century ago. It's time to move on.

However.......

Why is it that when someone states facts, some people have a problem?

The author used facts ...... not opinions..... in terms of quality comparisons and surveys. I do believe there's a bias by many members of the media.
It's funny....when I claim that our initial quality has improved to the point it's better than most foreign cars, some ask "yeah? well what about after you've owned the car or truck for a while!"......the surveys also point out that we're near the top in terms of quality surveying those who bought 3 years ago and still own. Go re-read the post. If you don't believe the 'facts' -- then show me facts that disprove what the author stated. (and telling the world about your personal experience does not count....let's see facts)

 

Ah hell, now look what you've done Ace....confused them with the facts.....LOL!

BTW, how was the vacation?

 

I have no issues at all with the facts that the author used, and personally, I'm quite glad to see how far quality has come.

That said....why would personal experience not be considered a "fact" or does not count? If i'm ready to buy a car, what am I going to put more faith in - my own experience or some numbers written for an article? Better yet, what would YOU put more faith in?

See my point? Regardless - there is no doubt that quality has improved....perhaps to a point that it is mostly a perception issue that now needs to be overcome (though I am not personally convinced of this yet).

 

Bob,

I certainly understand your point.

My point, however, is that 'facts' are not necessarily based on one experience. For example........I dated a redhead once.........she was a psychopath.........that does not mean that all redheads are psychopaths.....nor does it mean that I shouldn't date a redhead again.......

It's like the statement "Wow! They're selling a lot of SSRs because I saw three in the past two days........now, it might appear to be so, but the fact is that SSRs are NOT selling a lot of vehicles......." A quick look at a sales report will bear this out.

So.....when I say "I wanna see facts".......I don't want to hear "well, my girfriend's brother's sister's mother's cousin's dentist had a Buick and it was a P.O.S. ---so all Buicks are P.O.S.!" I want to see the 'source'......if you will...i.e. JD Power, RL Polk, etc.......

 

Scott,

I too see your point. I was simply getting at this from an individual's standpoint, as that is what I think is your bread-n-butter - the individual car buyer. Certainly the surveys you mention are important, and if my company did well on them, I'd use that to the best possible advantage (ie...ads, all over the place). However, word of mouth is still a powerful force - even more so with the internet. The "girlfriend's brother's sister's mother's cousin's dentist's daughter" who had the POS Oldsmobile still might have some unwelcome input - even given that Olds is gone.

Be it factual or perception...lack of quality is something that all US automakers (and GM in particular - cause we're on a GM board) need to address. As stated above, I hope it is more perception now, as continued high quality and a bit of ownership time will take care of perception problems.

BTW...I really do look forward to the new Camaro. I've been seduced to the GM side before (mainly by the LS1 vice the F-body itself), and it would be neat to have that seductive force back out there.

Bob

 

To highlight a point of Bob's post, perception is reality. It might not be right, it might be 100% wrong, but perception is reality.
That has been drilled into my mind where I work, and it holds true everywhere.

GM is showing its quality rankings in all of there commercials. Possibly now with the comibination of high sales this month, people will start to actualy see the quality has changed. This is the true test for GM's quality cars, if the cars can now stand on there own after word of mouth gets out about NEW GM cars.
talks like "You know, I had a 1988 Pontiac Grand Am, and that was a hunk of crap, but this new G6 is great!" and "Man, that 1992 Cavi I had sure broke down a lot and sounded like a tank, but this Cobalt feels so solid and quiet, its almost like its not even the same company!"
GM cant be all sizzle, no steak.

 

It's funny you mention perception. Last this weekend I had two seperate instances where I ran smack into the "perceived superiotity of Honda/Toyota/Hyundai" (yeah the last brand caught me off guard). The first instance actually had some substance to it, so I will address it first.

The Hyundai simply has a better warranty. My inlaws just bought a XG350l. Nice enough looking car, reminds me of a Jaguar somewhat in styling. The interior looks nice and it comes with a nice list of standard features. However, none of the above points would have, in and of themselves, made my father-in-law choose this car to replace his Buick. The warranty on the other hand, gave them a sense that the Hyundai was a better built car. Is this true? I honestly don't know, but the perception to them was that the Hyundai was better. Result, one sale for Hyundai, none for GM. The point of this, in my opinion, is that GM can and should tout it's achievements in quality, but should also back up the product with a better warranty. If the product is better, then the backing from the manufacturer should also be better.


The second incident actually arose from the first. Last night at dinner, we were talking about the in-laws in general, and talk turned to their new car.
My wife started talking about the quality of the imports versus the quality of the domestics, and how the inports are better built. This coming from a woman who drives a 2004 Grand Prix GTP (yeah I do the car buying).So of course I rush to the defense of how the domestic manufacturers have increased quality (specifically GM) and lo and behold! The "I am proud to work for GM" commercial comes on The average consumer does not know about the awards GM has received recently, nor about the volume of sales. All they hear is the doom and gloom about GM. Again, her perception was that the imports are better built cars.

In the end, perceptions can change, but it takes alot of hard work to deliver the message. Most importantly, once the messgae is delivered, it better be backed-up by the product! If the quality improvements that I have seen (New GTO, GP, Cobalt) continue, and are backed up with MORE stylish, well built cars(especially a certain 2-door,RWD,v-8 capable coupe, Cam-something or another) then you can start a whole NEW perception.

 

I always see that commercial with the "#1, #2, and #3 highest quality plants in the US" statement. Which plants are those, and what do they build? Also, by who's measurement and what method are they ranked as such?

I know last I heard the highest quality plant in the world was the Tahara, Japan plant where the LS430, GS430, some SC430s, and some GX470s are built.

 

Interestingly enough... it's JD Power............ for both.

You remembered the Toyota part, but forgot the GM part?

 

I haven't seen the most recent survey. If you noticed, Tahara has gotten this award for the last 4 years now... those GM plants were not mentioned in the survey I saw a year or two ago unless I completely forgot.

Still... Tahara is where my GS4 was made, and its sister plant is where our 4Runner was made... so it's more significant to me in a personal manner, at least.

 

That makes total sense... I'm just yanking your chain a bit... I'm pretty bored today.

 

It pains me greatly to say this, but....

...that is 100% correct. Sometimes sad, but almost always true.

 

Not to beat a dead horse but the difference illustrated here is between emperical evidence and anecdotal evidence. One is testable and verifiable, the other is not.

Most people on this site and indeed most of the internet can't comprehend the difference or why anecdotal evidence is really not evidence of anything at all.