Don't expect Horsepower to go much farther than today (plus new Lightning info)
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,030
From: Frankfort, KY U.S.A.
Originally posted by hp_nut
The Boss Mustang to go up against Jon Moss's BBC 572 Camaro and destroyed it in head to head at the track.
The Boss Mustang to go up against Jon Moss's BBC 572 Camaro and destroyed it in head to head at the track.
Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.
Fords whupping who?
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
I think those cars were pretty even at the track, The Boss might have edged out the 572 a couple of times until the Boss blew up.
Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.
Fords whupping who?
I think those cars were pretty even at the track, The Boss might have edged out the 572 a couple of times until the Boss blew up.
Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.
Fords whupping who?
ZING!!
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 599
From: Inland Empire, CA
Originally posted by mastrdrver
I believe it when I see it. With the Camaro coming back and talk of RWD sedans coming from GM, I don't see Ford staying where they are for long. These are performance cars, not high quantity cars. If you come in last in hp, you don't sell cars. People won't buy a Cobra when you could possibly have a Camaro for the same price and have more power.
I believe it when I see it. With the Camaro coming back and talk of RWD sedans coming from GM, I don't see Ford staying where they are for long. These are performance cars, not high quantity cars. If you come in last in hp, you don't sell cars. People won't buy a Cobra when you could possibly have a Camaro for the same price and have more power.
Originally posted by Darth Xed
Really... this stuff is unneeded, especially in this forum.
Want to argue things? Fine. But don't start name calling.
This place it too valubale to turn into something like that. Heck, you can say he is "ignorant" if you feel that is the case, but you really don't need to make a peronal attack with the "***" tacked on.
Really... this stuff is unneeded, especially in this forum.
Want to argue things? Fine. But don't start name calling.
This place it too valubale to turn into something like that. Heck, you can say he is "ignorant" if you feel that is the case, but you really don't need to make a peronal attack with the "***" tacked on.
No one seems to get, when you see a 700hp Mustang plow through a light and demolish a minivan, you don't think something's gonna give and we're all gonna be assed out? They're saying that adding more horsepower is becoming something that will attract too much negative attention from legislation so they'll make the cars faster in other ways. Why is this difficult or hard for people to understand?
Oh, and here's the most useful link I think I've posted here in a while:
Add Big Al's Z To Your Ignore List!!
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 293
From: Hou,TX
Originally posted by 1fastdog
Don't want a pissing contest, but no it doesn't. You stated that the Cobra outperformed the lightweight C5 HARDTOP. From 2001 on that would be a Z06.
I'm not trying to state that a present gen Cobra isn't a good performing and easy/cheap to mod drag car. Let's avoid stating the obvious, and avoid making Coletti's mistake.
Speaking from a off the showroom floor context, the Cobra's come up short on the strip, and very short on a roadcourse.
As an attempt to stay on topic...My earlier take on Coletti's quote made it clear that he probably would have approached his statement differently had he givin it more thought. Coletti is brash, but not stupid.
Someone previously alluded that Coletti knows more about vehicles than anyone on this site... thing is you never know what folks on this site know or do for a living unless they tell you.
Johm Coletti threw down the gauntlet not that long ago. Made quite a big deal out of it as I recall... His intent was to hand a big can of whoopass to GM and DCX in particular. Particularly in truck offerings. The thing is, at the present, the SVT Ford truck comes up short against the Dodge... not a guess or subjective opinion...just the facts.
His statement in Autonews is an admission of this and he trys to make the best of it while justifying it too. Sometimes when you backpedal you do "damage control". Damage control statements are usually awkward in context. This is an example, IMO, of such a deal.
On another note, a good pal of mine just did a cross country in the '05 GTO. I think the LS2 will provide big smiles all around for fans.
Don't want a pissing contest, but no it doesn't. You stated that the Cobra outperformed the lightweight C5 HARDTOP. From 2001 on that would be a Z06.
I'm not trying to state that a present gen Cobra isn't a good performing and easy/cheap to mod drag car. Let's avoid stating the obvious, and avoid making Coletti's mistake.
Speaking from a off the showroom floor context, the Cobra's come up short on the strip, and very short on a roadcourse.
As an attempt to stay on topic...My earlier take on Coletti's quote made it clear that he probably would have approached his statement differently had he givin it more thought. Coletti is brash, but not stupid.
Someone previously alluded that Coletti knows more about vehicles than anyone on this site... thing is you never know what folks on this site know or do for a living unless they tell you.
Johm Coletti threw down the gauntlet not that long ago. Made quite a big deal out of it as I recall... His intent was to hand a big can of whoopass to GM and DCX in particular. Particularly in truck offerings. The thing is, at the present, the SVT Ford truck comes up short against the Dodge... not a guess or subjective opinion...just the facts.
His statement in Autonews is an admission of this and he trys to make the best of it while justifying it too. Sometimes when you backpedal you do "damage control". Damage control statements are usually awkward in context. This is an example, IMO, of such a deal.
On another note, a good pal of mine just did a cross country in the '05 GTO. I think the LS2 will provide big smiles all around for fans.
I think I've posted many times the Z06 outruns a stock Cobra. If there are no hardtop non-Z06s in '03/'04, the comparison tilts even further in the stock Cobra's favor. So if outrunning a C5 in the quarter is coming up short at the strip, well you're entitled to that opinion.
The Lightning at $15K less and unchanged since '99 gets beat by a 2004 truck specifically designed to beat it. WOW.
Explain to me how you're backing down in the hp war when you're bringing out a 500+hp blown 5.4 Lightning next year that will tear the SRT-10 a new one? I think if DCX comes back in few years with a 700hp 8.3 Hemi V-10, yeah sure then it's time to consider backing down. You can try to spin Colleti's words to make you feel better, but Ford's upcoming Lightning, Cobra, and NA 5.4 stangs don't show any backing down.
The LS2 will let the GTO avoid being embarrassed by a $25K Mustang GT. That's a good thing.
Originally posted by AdioSS
Is GM High Tech performance a big enough magazine for you? Probably not, but they got a Vette to run 12.66. IIRC that was a FRC powered by the LS1, but I could be wrong there.
Is GM High Tech performance a big enough magazine for you? Probably not, but they got a Vette to run 12.66. IIRC that was a FRC powered by the LS1, but I could be wrong there.
Evan Smith could drive a Honda Civic to a 14 flat.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 293
From: Hou,TX
Originally posted by 30thZ286speed
I think those cars were pretty even at the track, The Boss might have edged out the 572 a couple of times until the Boss blew up.
Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.
Fords whupping who?
I think those cars were pretty even at the track, The Boss might have edged out the 572 a couple of times until the Boss blew up.
Meanwhile Jon Moss's Camaro 572 can be seen at the track every weekend at Super Chevy Shows across the country busting down the quarter in 8-9 seconds.
Fords whupping who?
I think you're wrong on who blew up at the track. The Ford stayed together. The Chevy spilled it's guts all over the asphalt.
And you got the part about who won right.
And left out that the Ford was down by about 72ci in displacement.
And you left out the the first 2 examples of Cobra beating vette and Lightning vs nothing.
Yeah I'd say Ford's laying a pretty good one on GM right now.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,232
From: Orlando, FL USA
Originally posted by hp_nut
Yeah I'd say Ford's laying a pretty good one on GM right now.
Yeah I'd say Ford's laying a pretty good one on GM right now.
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Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 218
You have things mixed up
That Boss Mustang was a "604", I even think Coletti didn't want to give the exact displacement. Basicly a 10L motor and bigger than the Chevy.
I know both cars had problems but I don't remember what broke on each.
That Boss Mustang was a "604", I even think Coletti didn't want to give the exact displacement. Basicly a 10L motor and bigger than the Chevy.
I know both cars had problems but I don't remember what broke on each.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Just from memory.....
I think the Camaro blew a rear end or U-joint at the strip but was repaired. The Mustang broke something in the valvetrain at the strip and was repaired.
The Camaro ran the road course flawlessly. The Mustang blew it's motor on the first lap of the road course. It was given a DNF and Camaro won the roadcourse part of the shootout by default.
I think the Camaro blew a rear end or U-joint at the strip but was repaired. The Mustang broke something in the valvetrain at the strip and was repaired.
The Camaro ran the road course flawlessly. The Mustang blew it's motor on the first lap of the road course. It was given a DNF and Camaro won the roadcourse part of the shootout by default.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,808
From: FL/MI
Originally posted by hp_nut
So if outrunning a C5 in the quarter is coming up short at the strip, well you're entitled to that opinion.
The Lightning at $15K less and unchanged since '99 gets beat by a 2004 truck specifically designed to beat it. WOW.
Explain to me how you're backing down in the hp war when you're bringing out a 500+hp blown 5.4 Lightning next year that will tear the SRT-10 a new one? I think if DCX comes back in few years with a 700hp 8.3 Hemi V-10, yeah sure then it's time to consider backing down. You can try to spin Colleti's words to make you feel better, but Ford's upcoming Lightning, Cobra, and NA 5.4 stangs don't show any backing down.
So if outrunning a C5 in the quarter is coming up short at the strip, well you're entitled to that opinion.
The Lightning at $15K less and unchanged since '99 gets beat by a 2004 truck specifically designed to beat it. WOW.
Explain to me how you're backing down in the hp war when you're bringing out a 500+hp blown 5.4 Lightning next year that will tear the SRT-10 a new one? I think if DCX comes back in few years with a 700hp 8.3 Hemi V-10, yeah sure then it's time to consider backing down. You can try to spin Colleti's words to make you feel better, but Ford's upcoming Lightning, Cobra, and NA 5.4 stangs don't show any backing down.
As for backing down, that's Coletti's statement and not mine. Regardless of drag prowess, high performance pick-ups don't really do it for me. They do have a following, just not at my house.
We shall see when the SVT offerings make their reappearance what Coletti meant to say or didn't mean to say.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,306
From: Jersey Shore
Originally posted by Z284ever
Just from memory.....
I think the Camaro blew a rear end or U-joint at the strip but was repaired. The Mustang broke something in the valvetrain at the strip and was repaired.
The Camaro ran the road course flawlessly. The Mustang blew it's motor on the first lap of the road course. It was given a DNF and Camaro won the roadcourse part of the shootout by default.
Just from memory.....
I think the Camaro blew a rear end or U-joint at the strip but was repaired. The Mustang broke something in the valvetrain at the strip and was repaired.
The Camaro ran the road course flawlessly. The Mustang blew it's motor on the first lap of the road course. It was given a DNF and Camaro won the roadcourse part of the shootout by default.
Meantime, we hear that the Boss is wounded. The cup end of an exhaust pushrod has shattered, leaving the stub free to do a million jabs at the billet rocker arm. The Camaro leads now by the slimmest of margins, 0.01 second. The Ford crew is working four cell phones--"Anybody have a 1.7 exhaust rocker for a Boss 9?"
The Ford camp expected more, a lot more, and they go into a huddle as Chevy pilot Kurt Urban works with the five-speed Camaro. His first pass is an 11.05 at 131.45 mph. But the engine misfires on the next run, and drops 6 mph.
From the pits, we hear the Boss wasn't getting full throttle: "carpet balled up under the gas pedal." And the Camaro has closed the gap on two spark plugs: "weren't indexed right so the pistons whacked 'em."
From the pits, we hear the Boss wasn't getting full throttle: "carpet balled up under the gas pedal." And the Camaro has closed the gap on two spark plugs: "weren't indexed right so the pistons whacked 'em."
Round Two, GingerMan Raceway: Staffer and ardent road racer Tony Swan will be our designated driver today on this 1.9-mile ribbon of blacktop draped over the gentle contours of western Michigan farm country.
Moss's test driver reports that the Camaro's oil pressure drops to zero in right turns, which is most of them. To save the motor, Swan will drive in fifth gear, using fourth only to exit crucial turns.
The black car flashes in the sun, visible most of the way around the circuit, as the big three-inch exhausts play fortissimo, then pianissimo, at the direction of maestro Swan's right foot. We hear mild axle hop under hard braking--something we've found in the street Camaros, too--but the laps are otherwise uneventful.
As the Boss rumbles out of the pits, it seems the bettor's choice to sweep the match. With its solid horsepower advantage, viewed against the Camaro's handicap of fading oil pressure, it has Moss in the Rolaids mode today. Lap one looks good, quicker than the Camaro's first. Uh-oh, the sound went soft. Something wrong. From behind a crest the red Ford emerges, limping toward the pits.
Swan unbuckles. "Oil pressure's gone," he reports. The mechanics look at one another, remembering those fragments of steel they couldn't retrieve yesterday.
Ford vs. Chevy ends in a stalemate.
Moss's test driver reports that the Camaro's oil pressure drops to zero in right turns, which is most of them. To save the motor, Swan will drive in fifth gear, using fourth only to exit crucial turns.
The black car flashes in the sun, visible most of the way around the circuit, as the big three-inch exhausts play fortissimo, then pianissimo, at the direction of maestro Swan's right foot. We hear mild axle hop under hard braking--something we've found in the street Camaros, too--but the laps are otherwise uneventful.
As the Boss rumbles out of the pits, it seems the bettor's choice to sweep the match. With its solid horsepower advantage, viewed against the Camaro's handicap of fading oil pressure, it has Moss in the Rolaids mode today. Lap one looks good, quicker than the Camaro's first. Uh-oh, the sound went soft. Something wrong. From behind a crest the red Ford emerges, limping toward the pits.
Swan unbuckles. "Oil pressure's gone," he reports. The mechanics look at one another, remembering those fragments of steel they couldn't retrieve yesterday.
Ford vs. Chevy ends in a stalemate.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,178
From: Payson, AZ USA
Hmmmm, maybe its just me, but I'm still trying to figure out what a race between 2 vehicles that have next to nothing familiar with anything in production from their respective manufacturers has to do with what Colletti said, meant, or what the next Lightning will be like.
I guess I'm just not able to read between the lines like some of you.
We all have a pretty good idea on what the next Lightning will offer............. those of us who currently own one maybe a bit more (due to the survey that Ford had us take on them).
Beyond that, not alot is known about anything. To sit here and say one company is better than the other based on vehicles that noone knows much about is pretty silly.
However, in the spirit of the discussion............. I think the 2026 Cobra will inhialate any GM product made, so Ford is the best.
Some of the GM diehards here have a hard time reading what GuionM has to say, because he does not spend his entire posting time gushing praise on anything and everything GM. In other words, he is not a cheerleader. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of the things that your manufacturer of choice does. Just like there is nothing wrong with liking something that the "enemy" does.
As much as many here may not want to admit is, Ford and SVT proved to the rest of the large manufacturing community that it was possible to make low production niche vehicles.......... and make money doing so. Up to that point, noone had had much success (remembering that the Syclone/Typhoon and Silverado 454SS were discontinued due to poor sales). One thing that many like to forget, is that SVT division was never about all out speed to the detriment of everything else. It has always been about balance. Balancing speed, handling, ride, comfort and amenities at a price that a large amount of the populace can stomache.
PVO is doing it a bit different. The main criteria is speed, with little effort given to ride comfort, and short of the SRT-4, little concern over accessibility (read some of the available information about the harsh ride of the Ram SRT-10 to understand what I mean). Not everyone can afford $45-50K+ vehicles, however the pool of people who can swing a $30-35K vehicle is much larger. While the next generation Lightning is expected to come in above $35K, do not expect it to be north of $40K.
Hopefully GM's performance division will try to make vehicles more in the vein of SVT. In other words, "relatively" affordable vehicles that are easy to live with on a daily basis.
We will just have to see.
I guess I'm just not able to read between the lines like some of you.
We all have a pretty good idea on what the next Lightning will offer............. those of us who currently own one maybe a bit more (due to the survey that Ford had us take on them).
Beyond that, not alot is known about anything. To sit here and say one company is better than the other based on vehicles that noone knows much about is pretty silly.
However, in the spirit of the discussion............. I think the 2026 Cobra will inhialate any GM product made, so Ford is the best.
Some of the GM diehards here have a hard time reading what GuionM has to say, because he does not spend his entire posting time gushing praise on anything and everything GM. In other words, he is not a cheerleader. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of the things that your manufacturer of choice does. Just like there is nothing wrong with liking something that the "enemy" does.
As much as many here may not want to admit is, Ford and SVT proved to the rest of the large manufacturing community that it was possible to make low production niche vehicles.......... and make money doing so. Up to that point, noone had had much success (remembering that the Syclone/Typhoon and Silverado 454SS were discontinued due to poor sales). One thing that many like to forget, is that SVT division was never about all out speed to the detriment of everything else. It has always been about balance. Balancing speed, handling, ride, comfort and amenities at a price that a large amount of the populace can stomache.
PVO is doing it a bit different. The main criteria is speed, with little effort given to ride comfort, and short of the SRT-4, little concern over accessibility (read some of the available information about the harsh ride of the Ram SRT-10 to understand what I mean). Not everyone can afford $45-50K+ vehicles, however the pool of people who can swing a $30-35K vehicle is much larger. While the next generation Lightning is expected to come in above $35K, do not expect it to be north of $40K.
Hopefully GM's performance division will try to make vehicles more in the vein of SVT. In other words, "relatively" affordable vehicles that are easy to live with on a daily basis.
We will just have to see.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,029
Originally posted by MunchE
Oh, and here's the most useful link I think I've posted here in a while:
Add Big Al's Z To Your Ignore List!!
Oh, and here's the most useful link I think I've posted here in a while:
Add Big Al's Z To Your Ignore List!!
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by 94LightningGal
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of the things that your manufacturer of choice does. Just like there is nothing wrong with liking something that the "enemy" does.
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with some of the things that your manufacturer of choice does. Just like there is nothing wrong with liking something that the "enemy" does.
This concept alone sets the true "car-nut" apart from the brand-loyalist.
I think as we age, we see this more prevalently too.
It takes all kinds to make the system go, ya know?
'Nuf said.
As for Coletti's comments - he's spot on.
They can make 1000hp monsters, but by the time the government and insurance companies get through with you, you won't be able to afford driving it AFTER you buy it - so what's the point?
Personally, I keep harping on the secret to Mustang's success for the past 20 years, and "best HP in class" AIN'T what did it.
I'll hand over the max HP trophy to GM, DCX, or anybody else in a heartbeat, as long as the common Mustang keeps itself easy to mod and customize in the trade. Sure it's nice to have the hp right from the OEM, but that should be the exclusion, not the rule for a ponycar IMO.And on another aspect, heck, I much more enjoy having people think I drive a plain ol' 225hp 5.0 when they decide to jump on me at a light!
It's MUCH harder to play with folks when they KNOW you are in a 400hp car. Just my .02 .
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 745
From: New Jersey
Considering this is a GM board, er, A Camaro Board, I would say that most people's expectations here beyond horespower are very low. I like my camaro because I think it looks great, and has power....Would I pay sticker for a new 02? Heck no, why, when I can buy a 93 for 1/5th of hte price and get the same thing.
GM Is being smacked around by every car company out there. Besides the Vette, there is nothing exciting around the 30k mark. And a GTO is not a gto, its a friggin 2 door grand prix with a bigger motor and blander looks. =)
I admire what Ford is doing, they win customers over and they keep them. They know how to market their cars to a wide variety of customers as well.
But just a little note....There is MORE to car ownership than horsepower and alot of people here especially put too much emphasis on it. With that said....there is nothing Exciting about GM south of 40k. While over at any other car company, you can get alot more for less.
GM Is being smacked around by every car company out there. Besides the Vette, there is nothing exciting around the 30k mark. And a GTO is not a gto, its a friggin 2 door grand prix with a bigger motor and blander looks. =)
I admire what Ford is doing, they win customers over and they keep them. They know how to market their cars to a wide variety of customers as well.
But just a little note....There is MORE to car ownership than horsepower and alot of people here especially put too much emphasis on it. With that said....there is nothing Exciting about GM south of 40k. While over at any other car company, you can get alot more for less.
