Please. How many buyers that naive and gullable do you suppose are still alive in the USA? Ten or twenty? Everyone shops around nowadays and they quickly find the market price for things, especially high-dollar items like new cars. And early adopters are always willing to pay more than the rest.

Care to show some evidence disproving it?

Why? Here's why - Ford KNOWS how many can be sold before they are even made. It makes sense to limit SVT dealerships - lends credence to the 'exclusivity' image thing.

Great! Maybe someday Ford will be too!

http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news...16/170771.html

 

I was able to use a friend's employee purchase and get the truck at 1% less than FACTORY invoice. As such, I got a 33K truck for 20K. I have since done the following mods:
1. True Flow intake
2. FM cat back exhaust
3. JBA headers

These are the only available currently. I am awaiting a Hypertech or Superchips programmer, and will also add a Hotchkis TVS with Bilstein shocks. Even with all the mods, I will hang with any SS on the streets. If they do mod for mod, they will of course be ahead! My point was simply to illustrate that GM has ignored the legion of diehard fans who want cheap RWD 8 cylinder performance. If I can not get it from the General, I will get my domestic fix somewhere. I would have preffered to stay with GM, but that wasn't a prudent choice.

 

350hp (c5 trim) is enough for most, but chevy still sells 8-9k 405hp z06’s a year. I just found it odd that a less practical performance car like the z06 with the same exact power-train and price can sell in double the numbers. I could be wrong but I think BMW sells more similarly priced M3 coupes than that 3-4k. The CTS-V in it-self is a bargain. You don’t think it has the potential to sell more than just 3-4k units?

You said “The GT was built mostly due to the fragile ego of Jacques Nasser feeling bummed that Ford had no production car that could run with a Z06 or Viper.”

The general idea applies. Did the need to compete with the others have anything to with it? If so he’s ego comes into question much in the way you brought Ford exec’s ego into question. That was your basic logic. Same thing. Lutz helped bring the GTO here because the rwd v8 performance coupe segment area was left empty after f-bod (needed Cobra/Mustang competitor?), the Cobalt SS will have a blown Ecotec so they can finally keep up with the SRT-4 and other pocket-rockets, and Lutz was behind the creation of the sport divisions we have now come to know as SS and V. By your logic, Cadillac and the V’s resurgence are ego driven because they didn’t initially have cars that could really compete with Mercedes/Bmw as their respective M and AMG performance divisions. Same logic whether you’ll agree with it or not. The question is, is “ego” a good or bad thing?.

Old news indeed since I remember mentioning the rejection of the modern look a couple of times myself. This quote is only telling me what I’ve already told or being trying to tell you. There was a modern interpretation and it was rejected in favor of the classic look. . Companies design a couple of clay models and computer generated images and go with what they think is best. Obviously, Mays and his designers did 2 or so designs and in the end picked the classic one. The modern interpretation design was already completed and considered. Like I said earlier, lack of creativity or did they simply go with what they thought looked best?

Obviously you aren’t versed with high dollar exotics. Niether am I, but I have enough posters and have drooled over enough of them to have a basic idea. Go take a look at the S7, certain Ferrari’s, or a few other high dollar supercars. They take pride in displaying their engines. These high dollar cars are all about style. Quit looking at them as you would your Comp-G.

Todays motorist? Speak for yourself. A true enthusiast would appreciate that much more than some stinken sunroof. A nice view of an artfully done engine compartment or a sunroof? Do you even have to ask? What kind of motorist are you talking about here? The kind like our moms, or the kind like me (and possibly even you even though I question why you’d want a sunroof instead)? Look at the nature of the car. It’s a performance car, not your mothers impala. The people that buy these kind of cars are the type that’d appreciate such a thing.

Lol, I just find it laughable that you’d go at the GT for not having a sunroof.

Perhaps that has to do with a little think called proportions and size. It’s sits low and wide, with a long hood with scoop, short deck, short overhangs, etc…. It still looks the part of a performance car…obviously.

The Hemi engine is optional on both Reg and Extended cab. So? It’s just an engine option. The performance option comes in the form of the SRT-10. You know…the truck with the trick suspension, viper engine/6spd/brakes, and the very aggressive looks. The one that’ll tear most cars a new a-hole.

Crummy? If I recall, I mentioned two of your cars…the other being the T/A. You were saying? That’s fine though. I had the feeling you’d purposely leave that out.

 

Heavy mods? Who said an HD needs heavy mods to dominate the SS, it does so already. The L’s are a different story all together. I’ve got a friend that runs 13.1’s with the stock pulley in his 2003 L. His best stock time was 13.5 before mods. Heavy mods aren’t needed to make these trucks fly. Blown engines react very well to other basic bolt-ons as well. Full exhaust, cold air intake, gears, MAF, etc… could reap good gains. One could still keep it stock and still own most of the vehicles on the road.

An HD owner could also swap in the L’s pulley. I’m sure you know why it is running less boost and rated 40hp less than the L to begin with. You could swap in the L’s pulleys, gain a good bit of power, and reap the rewards. Surely the HD’s engine can reliably handle the extra boost since it’s the stock boost setting of the L. Sub-400 horses easily with an L spec 5.4 and exhaust. Throw on more bolt-ons (MAF, gears, sticker tires, etc…), and you’ve got an even faster truck. Overall, you can make the HD run 13’s without breaking a sweat.

Come on now, I can’t hold your hand and lead you to places everytime. I did give you some numbers as well as telling you where to go for a better source (board member Bill Cosby or any MOD motor racer) didn’t I? Have a look for yourself.

You point out and tout the production numbers yet ignore the cost difference of the bikes in question all together. How could you tout sales number yet ignore such a large determining factor as price gaps? Well geez….of course chevy’s outsell caddies and Mustangs outsell vettes. As for grinning owners, don’t think HD owners aren’t happy or dedicated to their bikes. Ford may make more Mustang owners smile, but that takes nothing away from the corvette or its owners. They may be a smaller population, but their dedication/love for their brand isn’t any weaker.

The other funny thing is, it goes against your notion that HD’s are driven by tough, tattooed, bearded dudes. Actual owners are fluent upper classmen as the income stats points out. I guess stereotypes stick. Why else would our cars be classified as “mullet” or “punk” cars when that no longer is the case?

 

I don't know... that's what expert marketers and VP's decide after reviewing volumes of sales, demographics and survey data. I've already given my hunch, that most CTS intenders are going to be quite satisfied with the new more powerful V6.

Only if there is a 'need' for Ford to compete directly with Ferrari in the stratosphere-priced supercar market. I for one don't see the benefit, for average buyers like me.

It matters not a whit whether they cooked up 2 preliminary designs or twenty. What matters is the one they had the guts to build for the buyers. And now the buyers will get the same old 40-year old look from Ford. Yawn.

No thanks. I prefer to PUSH car companies to innovate. Ferrari, Lambo etal have been putting their engines under glass for years, yes, I'm aware it's all the rage. Big Deal. I'd rather see someone BREAK the supercar mold, and really put out something new and unique! And ironically, Ford had already done this! Just take a look at the GT90 concept I referenced above. The problem was, they didn't have the guts to build and sell it. (BTW I'm not saying GM is innocent here either... I really believe they should have put a Cien-like supercar into production). Take a look at the GT90. It has the all-important ( ) engine-look-at-me window... but also a generous tinted clear canopy. That car is a work of modern art! I'm keenly disappointed they didn't build it instead of the GT.

One word for you. WOMEN. They are playing more important and central decisionmaking roles in car purchases today... and they demand creature comforts. Which would a woman prefer - the GT90 or the GT? I'm NOT saying many or most GT's will be sold to women (clearly not)... but women have a bigger input than ever before when they whisper in their man's ear. And a GT intender might often hear this whisper from his gal: "Honey... I really want to feel the sun. Let's get a convertible Ferrari instead"

Yawn. For the same money, if I didn't need a back seat, I could get a Z06. Now who's got the sore booty

Sorry to disappoint. I wouldn't want to post unnecessary text here so just examined one possibility Fact is - I don't have the TA anymore. My tykes outgrew its back seat. I still have the GTP so I figured I'd look at that. As for the Firebird - why didn't I do that? Simple. I was quite satisfied with the performance it came with. Plus I wasn't all on fire to go smack down all Mustangs and Lightnings. If I had been, the performance potential was there in spades thanks to the Gen III V8. Whether it be installed by the factory, or by me.

Whatever you say professor (did you really mean, 'dominates the SS under ideal track conditions'?)

Assuming of course you are on a nice tidy warm and dry track...

Why should I? I already know who is the fastest. The one with the most $$$$

Guess it hinges upon what you believe makes something an 'icon' or a 'legend'. I happen to think it's more a matter of HOW MANY people it inspires or moves emotionally. You seem to think it's some kind of bidding contest, where the most expensive bike is the most noteworthy. If that's the case, its only memorable to the chosen few who can afford one. In contrast, I have many cherished and low cost memories of flogging the living tar out of my bikes, a lot of which was while sumo-wrestling in the sport of offroading.

I leave you tonight with some images of the fat, slow sumo-wrestlers in this sport....

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/gallery/VUILLEMIN.jpg

http://www.motocrosswest.com/html/usopen6.html

http://www.h2fanatic.com/photopost/s...cat=513&page=1

http://www.h2fanatic.com/photopost/s...cat=513&page=1

http://www.nwzr2.org/onlinephotos/sh...cat=500&page=1

 

I guess parts don’t depreciate in value or something?? Let’s be a little realistic here. You’d be lucky to get half the price back on those parts if you decide to sell those as well down the line. The older/more used they get, the more they depreciate. Your parts would have depreciated a good bit as well as your truck.. Don’t think you’re saving money, because in reality you’d have lost a good deal of value on both investments (parts and truck). Simply installing those parts or driving the truck off the lot alone will take huge bite out of your investment. In 2 years, your truck would have already depreciated by $8-9k (Edmunds). Assuming you get a very generous 50% back on those used parts (14k worth when new) you’d have lost 7k on that as well for a total of about $15-16k in total value lost on both after 2 years. So the initial 33k investment is now worth 18 or 19k. An L on the other hand would have lost about 10-11k in those 2 years (Edmunds). $10.5k on the L vs 15.5k on the 1500? Just guestimates, but it gives you a basic idea. The real numbers might surprise you. You can even be conservative and add/take upto as much as 5k on either truck. At best, you’d be lucky to even break even with the L.

I never said you had no experience, but you’re talking like the motor will just drop in place, and a stall/cooler added, and everything’s good to go. Turning a non-performance vehicle into a performance-vehicle is no easy task. Your version was too simplified or you didn’t care to mention the details or other things involved. No mention of electrical/computer/fuel system/drivetrain upgrades, chassis bracing, suspension mods (you want it to handle the power and perform like an L right?), proper wheels and tires, maybe brake upgrade to compensate for the added power, etc… will also be needed. Depending on the motor, you might even need a new bell-housing for the tranny (or even a new Heavy duty tranny all together), maybe a few aftermarket tranny parts. You might even need new (maybe custom) brackets and/or accessories for the engine. You might need new motor/tranny mounts, driveshaft, etc…Crate motor don’t usually include exhaust, intake manifold or carb, etc…. and so you’d have to purchase those and the supporting bolt-ons separately as well. If it isn’t a fairly straitforward/common swap, you might be lucky and not need any expensive custom one off or hard to find parts. When everything is done, you’d have to tune it to make sure everything is working correctly and run it through the dyno a couple of times (which is going to cost you $$$ as well) till the overall tune is just right. Overall, you can’t cheap out or do a chip-chop job if you want a true L caliber truck. In the end, you’re still going to have to pay to play. Like the saying goes, “you get what you pay for”.

A full all-around performance upgrade will not come cheap and will require many many parts to handle high Hp reliably. That is if you want to build a true L caliber killer. It’s going to take more than a transplanted motor and a few minor tranny upgrades. Don’t think 14k doesn’t spend easily, especially in this expensive hobby of ours (even without cost of labor included). Cars like the L cost what they do for a reason, and for a factory performance truck, it is a bargain. You can’t deny that.

Like the saying goes, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Good to know you’ve set your sights on the L, and that you’re willing to dump 14k in mods on a 19k truck to beat a stock one. Budget buildups are a dime a dozen and comparisons like these make up the oldest excuses in the book. “I can get X for less and build it up to beat Y”. You can build a v6 to beat a GT, a GT to beat a Cobra, a base f-150 to beat an L, a cheaper 4wd Hemi Quad cab to beat an SS, a c5 to beat up a z06…so what? Is this somehow supposed to take anything away from the L or the other factory high-performance vehicles? Is this your way of trying to undermine the L's value?

Those limitations are legit.

I see you’ve softened your death-grip on your off-road excuse. At the end of the day, both belong on the pavement so you can pretty much dismiss those off-road situations. Don’t let the AWD fool you into thinking you’ve got a legitimate rock-crawler. It’s a semi-luxury all-weather muscle truck, not an off-road vehicle.

In non-ideal road conditions (snowy and very wet conditions), the SS would most definitely come in handy as you said. That's what the AWD is for. But somethings things can be done to lessen that problem on the Rwd car(ex: fill the bed up with sand bags, get all season or winter rubber, or throw some chains on the back tires). That worked for the Mustang. I got by with a couple of sandbags in the trunk (In MN). It’s no AWD or 4wd, but it’s a simple fix and one you could get by with. It isn’t like the rwd car’s completely helpless. Out of the 8,781 F-bod owners survey on the coverpage of cz28.com, 40% said they drive their f-bods in the snow/rain, and 25% said no.

 

Chevy sells 8-9k z06's over the regular 350hp c5's. Isn’t 350hp in such a light car satisfying enough? Btw, 26Xhp sport-sedans are a dime a dozen now a days. 400+hp luxury-performance sedans (especially at 50k) aren’t. This car's a bargain. I believe BMW sells more $80k M5’s then that. M3 sales are probably triple that as well. Maybe there just is no demand/need for such a caddy?

V isn't for the average buyer either. The cheapest V offering costs north of 50k. How about the non-V $76k XLR? A V version with a v12 (if it ever happens) would easily cost near 100k. How does the average buyer benefit in this situation? They are catering to a specific group of people, not the general public. Cadillac never catered to “this” specific group before, but they are now trying to mimic MB/BMW and AMG/M, and doing a fairly good job might I add. Ego driven?

Btw, Mays is only a designer. He doesn’t call shots on what makes it to production. I don’t know how his ego came into question. His task was to design the interior/exterior, etc… The rest of the car was engineered by the Ford Performance Groupes like SVT. First it was a guy who wasn’t even with Ford at that time, and now a designer. Can you at least blame the right person?.

No, it matters because you specifically said they lacked creativity. That would imply that they couldn't design a modern interpretation, and that notion was FALSE. They could have, they did, and they rejected it. Case closed.

As for buyers getting the same 40 year old look, I wasn’t aware that Ford has been publicly selling GT’s for 40 years. A few dozen race cars may have been sold back then, but that was about it. Those cars weren’t even sold to the general public. It wasn’t like “hey, we’ve put your beloved GT/40 into production so hit the Ford dealers for a chance to purchase one”. Very few people who had connections (with mostly race teams) got them. In essence, the original was nothing more than a race car.

Btw, here’s that same out-dated 40 year old look. Despite having the cues of a 40 year old race car, it still looks more modern than 99% of the cars on the road. Talk about an enduring style. One thing you’ve failed to note: Race cars are generally ahead of their time. This GT is perfectly at home in the 2000’s.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/i...gt_popup_9.jpg
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/i...t_popup_10.jpg
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/i...concept_07.jpg

Another very unique supercar concept from Ford was the v12 powered Indigo. If that car was approved, it would have been the closest one could have gotten to driving a street legal F1 car.

The GT90 as nice as it was, would have been a million dollar car had it seen production. It’s 7 times the car the GT is, but it also would have costed 7 times more. In the end, the GT was the most feasible of the 3. You balk at the thought of a Ferrari 360 competitor, yet want Ford to make a McLaren F1 caliber car? Irony?

As for pushing the envelope, you don’t do so by making sunroofs available. Lol. Gimme a break. This is a performance car. A sunroof? Talk about screwing the structural rigidity or overall performance IMAGE of the car. [b[You might as well toss in a rear seat and increase the overall height so “more women” could buy them. [/b] Maybe they should toss in a child seat as well, so these women can have their newborn toddlers along for the ride. What else would you like? Maybe an AWD system so you can drive your 150k supercar in the snow?…or a bed so you can do some hauling? Lets be realistic here and look at these cars for what they are. You want a sunroof? Fine…have someone cut you one via aftermarket (which’d be shame).

Women want many things, so? It’s an exclusive supercar, and is marketed as such. Obviously it isn’t for everyone.

You ask which would a women prefer? Maybe a cute little Porsche boxter, Z4, or perhaps a c5 drop-top instead of either GT/GT-90. I doubt she’d care for a million dollar GT90 or any of these other testosterone laden 500+ hp supercars. As for the GT intender, he’d have to sacrifice performance and $$$ to get the more expensive Ferrari. You get some potential buyers, and you lose some. That’s the same with every car. Can’t get em all.

And what makes the L owner different? Maybe they’d be satisfied with the performance, sporty styling, and exclusivity it came with as well. Maybe he/she wasn’t about getting a lesser slower truck and building it to perform. Sounds like the same reasoning, but applied to the L.

In all honestly, you could have gotten the same performance and potential in a formula for thousands less than the T/A…but you didn’t.

 

Would you quit with this ideal track condition excuse, lol. No one races with 2 inches of water or snow on the road. AWD may help, but it isn’t a miracle worker nor is it going to work magic. Try racing in any non-ideal conditions and you’re just begging for it. Don’t let it fool you into a false sense of security. Either you’re one big risk taker, or I’m simply playing it smart.

Btw: It’s safe to assume that most tracks are fairly prepped to prevent unneeded accidents. Why’d you race on ****-poor weather to begin with?

That’s like me bragging about my stock F-150 4x4 beating a vette (let it even be a C5-R for all I care) on a track with 2” of snow. Is this supposed to be some sort of accomplishment? It’s like bragging about beating a guy with both hands tied behind his back (can’t use them to full potential), while you had full use of yours. Sorry, that’s no accomplishment. Besides, good luck trying to get the other guy to race you under those conditions.

Which is most every track, and the only real condition any sane person (short of a professional) would race in.

$$ will only take you so far.

It’s not a bidding contest. Who said legend and iconic factor hinges on how many you could sell? By your account, the camaro is a bigger icon/legend than the vette because it inspired more/sold to more people. I say that isn’t entirely true. Big memories/icons also come in small packages (small sales numbers in this case). Besides, there's no shortage of harley's in my neck of the woods.

Personally, I don’t really care for Harley, but I won’t discredit their popularity just beause they aren't on every block. The only Bike I really care for are Japanese sport bikes. My all time favorite and dream bike happens to be the Hayabusa *drool*.

No SS tackling some killer trails? Ahhh, I’m dissapointed. Jokes aside, I never questioned the off-road capability of the H2. That is a genuine off-road vehicle.

I also leave you with Sumo wrestlers in their respective sport. Sorry...i couldn't resist.
http://web.mit.edu/21f.066/www/mhori/sumo_1.jpe
http://web.mit.edu/21f.066/www/mhori/sumo_2.jpe

 

Who said anything about selling them with the vehicle or even at the time of sale? I’ve still got my 17x9 MM11 wheels, DirectFlo lid, SS takeoff muffler off my TA. SOMEDAY I WILL again have an LS1 Firebird

In the interest of keeping the camaroz28.com server up and running with normal response times (plus to keep from boring the readers here to tears), I’ve purposely kept my opinions to minimum length. Sure, there’s more to the undertaking. As I said, it’s not for everyone, and it does require some planning and elbow grease (news flash: there are actually people who do it as THEIR HOBBY, like fishing). However, you suggested being realistic. The L is not a top-fuel funny car. It’s a good value in muscle trucks but it’s not a rocket ship. In fact it’s saddled with some unfortunate weight (that being bulky multi-valve heads, SC, intercooler, etc). It doesn’t take THAT much of a build-up to run with one. Were you thinking I need tubs and 1800 HP? “True L caliber” truck…. Hooey. As for the ancillary bits… what? Bigger brakes… stiffer springs and a few other deliveries from summitracing.com and pacepontiac.com, poof you’re there. (I would NOT however be buying altezza-type taillights like the L ) For that matter, there is already at least one outlet for buying a virtual regular cab SS: http://www.chapmansupertrucks.com/


Where’d I say anything about rock crawling? That’s a very demanding and sparsely-attended niche of the sport of offroading… with its own peculiar stars like the Jeep Wrangler. No, I’m talking about the kind of offroading most truck enthusiasts ACTUALLY have fun in, mountain fire roads, snow-covered trails to a hunting cabin with your truck bed full of coolers and rifles, that kind of thing. Those are the kind of conditions where HD and L owners are better off staying home

Sure, I did that with my 99 Formula which I drove all winter too. It helps but it’s a pain to either remember to load the stuff at the first hint of precipitation or to live with the extra weight and sagging rear all the time.

Clearly you are stuck in a mindset about this exclusive-product-marketing thing, so there’s little I can do to help. There’s a lot of psychology in the marketing of luxury durable goods. BMW is an established player and moves a lot of units. (OF COURSE they would sell more if they could!). Caddy is pushing into the niche with a fine new product (CTS-V) and you can bet they’ve done plenty of research to determine how many they can sell, and at various price points. It makes sense for them to be conservative at first and then they can always ramp up later to sell more as they get their foot in the door. EVERY luxury carmaker goes to great lengths to portray their products as being in high demand, so they manipulate production levels to always keep a few buyers ‘beating on the door’… but they would jump on more sales/profits in an INSTANT if they saw the real possibility. Face it… there are just not a lot of people with the capital and desire to go out and get a new GT.

I would go to the trouble, if only it mattered. But the bottom line, one of their leaders chose to spend heavy development $$ and the devotions of many of Ford’s best engineering talent on a product that will almost certainly never turn a profit, and whose impact on Ford success cannot be measured by objective means. I don’t care who did it… but someone goofed.

Nope, not false. If this wondrous ‘modern interpretation’ was really good and creative, it would have stunned * Mr. Anonymous Decisionmaker * so thoroughly he/she would have stopped their development right there and said “go with this one!” I can envision the ‘modern interpretation’. It probably looked like a VW-powered kit car and sent everyone ‘running back to Mama’, IE the old GT40 shape dreamed up so very long ago that its designers are likely all deceased by now. The Modern Interpretation was REJECTED because it wasn’t good enough, since the designers weren’t creative enough. Again, the irony! All the leaders needed to do was say “Here’s the GT90 models. Massage the design to be producible and have Modena-360-class performance. Use a current engine like that out of the Mighty L. And make sure it has an engine display window!”

What difference does that make? Yes, it’s a sleek and smooth shape. But it’s still FORTY YEARS OLD. It makes no difference that it wasn’t sold all 40 years (that clearly hasn’t stopped the kit car industry from trying ). Looks modern? Maybe the headlights. The rest – no different really from your average high-dollar Ferrari. In fact, the upswept rear end looks positively old to me. Those kind of rear ends really did go out with the 60’s. Nowadays carmakers have learned to put EVERY cubic inch of the car’s volume to good use. The Corvette has a huge trunk inside its wide, low rear end.

There you go again, taking my words out of context. I will now clear the air of the confusion you have caused. I don’t think it’s wise for Ford to try and sell the GT now with their financial woes… what they really needed coming out this year was a fresh, popular midsize, RWD V8 passenger car (NOT the lumbering Marauder) (BTW… do you consider it a muscle car? Careful, it’s a loaded question ). But GIVEN that Ford has concluded they must now get into the supercar market, I was disappointed they didn’t choose the GT90 as their concept design.

I’m surprised, why haven’t you asked? Why do I wish Caddy had made the Cien, given my disdain for the supercar niche? Simple – GM is on a solid footing to be able to undertake such flights of fancy. However I would still have mixed feelings since I know development $$ are always in demand and GM needs some new mid-priced cars too.

Excuse me, I said nothing about MOMS. I said WOMEN. BIG difference. It’s easy to integrate a sunroof into a modern supercar without sacrificing structural integrity. After all, the engine has it’s own sunroof already, and it’s not even a paying customer!

Oh yes I did! I had a 99 formula and sold it to get the TA. (my 99: www.mwshowgo67.com/formula99 ) Believe it or not… The extra baubles in the TA weren’t my main reason for upgrading. I mostly wanted the color (the Formula was Navy Blue and thus hard to keep clean, the TA was sunset orange) and the extra HP in the 2002’s from the LS6 intake. If I’d set my mind to it I could have put the intake on my 99 but the car would have been dark blue. Maybe someday I will hunt down a V6 Firebird and drop in a recycled LS1

I don’t do foolish things in foul weather, regardless of what I’m driving. But I live in the real world. Unfortunately, my workplace is not at the end of a warm, dry 1/4 mile track. I drive a lot (including picking up kids and etc) and happen to enjoy pushing my car (when it’s safe) as part of that. And there are a lot of * reasonably safe * conditions on regular roads, including intermittent wet patches, salt and grit dust, etc… these things make it difficult to enjoy a vehicle like a Lightning or HD year-round. Sure, it can be done, it's just not as fun.

That is my belief. Something becomes a legend when A LOT of people think it is… typically by direct experience with it. As a matter of fact, I DO think the Camaro is a bigger legend. More past and current owners can relate to it. More have experienced its performance directly. More are amazed at its performance value and utility.

No… merely implied the same by calling it heavy and slow. It’s not slow in its element. A Lightning is slow too, when trying to cross deep white-water streams

 

Now you have all the parts sitting in your garage (14k worth). Aren’t those take-off parts still depreciating in value even just sitting there? It’s like saying, I won’t ever sell my L, therefore I’m not losing money/value or worried about taking a major hit selling it. Same thing.

No one said it was a top-fuel car. I simply stated that is a very fast for a vehicle of its size and weight and that’s true. 0-60 in 5.2, ¼ mile in sub 13.5’s, 63.6mph slalom, .85g’s skidpad, and a 147mph topspeed in a vehicle of its size and weight is hard to come by. Its accomplishments are nothing to take lightly. Ford didn’t just up the Hp and lower the truck, they tweeked/tuned/upgraded many aspect of it (which is usually expected from factory cars). Getting a non-performance truck to perform and behave just like the L isn’t easy by an stretch of the imagination. It takes a lot of parts, time, and $$.

Also, those multi-valve heads, Sc, and intercooler are doing more helping than hurting.

When I said run with one (or L caliber), I meant handling, braking, acceleration, tuning, etc…. It has to be reliable and well tuned, and be able to handle high Hp fairly well. It may not take 1800hp, but it will take a lot of work. Keep in mind that the Silverado in question happens to be heavy, un-aerodynamic, and not built for performance from the factory. Many of the current stock parts wouldn’t be suited for high Hp or racing applications. We aren’t talking about a z28 or Trans Am build-up here. Getting a truck to run much quicker or handle much better is no easy choir. You thought getting a 4 banger econo-car to perform was hard? ohh boy.

It also isn’t as simple as stiffer springs. The L happens to pull .85g’s and turns 63.6mph in the slalom (Mustang GT and non-1LE z28 numbers). People actually autoX and road race these pigs. It’s going to take a lot more than JUST stiffer springs to get that Silverado to handle as well. Look forwards to spending a good amount of $$$ on stiffer shocks, thicker rear and front performance sway bars, wider performance tires (L has 295/45’s) and the wheels to match, stiffer lowering coil springs up front and progressive leaf springs out back). And that’s just the basics, easy 2 grand.

Btw, after some prodding I found out that the L does come with an engine/tranny oil cooler. Earlier on, you talked about how owners did mods without installing such stuff as oil coolers. I just found out they come standard with them. Just thought I’d bring that to your attention.

Ahh, so a regular stroll in the woods is all it’s good for? What ever happened to the sport of off-roading? Tackling some sissy trail isn’t much of a sport. It is better than the L/HD in that situation, but that still isn’t saying much since even my mountain bike is better suited then either L/HD. They don’t pretend to be off-road vehicles.

I’m looking at it from another angle. It also makes sense for them to lower production to boost the overall image, prestige, and value of the vehicle/brand in question. A BIG part of these cars are image. Sure, profits are very important (you need to stay alive), but it isn’t the ONLY thing that matters or that is taken into consideration. Why even have a set or stringent production number? Do what the vette or z06 does and sell as many as there are orders. Build it on an order basis. You want it? Here, you’ve got it. Wouldn’t this maximize profits? With SVT, simply sell/market them all through all 4,200 N/A Ford dealers instead of a few hundred so you can reach a more broader customer base. But they haven’t done that. For this reason, profits are in a way been sacrificed (even if it means losing 1 potential buyer). I think Ford could easily sell more by just doing that. I doubt Ford implemented SVT to pull in HUGE profits though. The reg cars they're based off (focus, Mustang, F-150) are for the most part sales successes.


The design was created by ford Living Legend design studio. The name says it all “Living legend”. Obviously, heritage is a big part of this studios work. They set out goals before the design process even began. Maybe they wanted instant recognizability or a style that caught the spirit of the original race car the best. Start from scratch and you lose that, especially when you have 40 years between the 2 cars. Many cars lose that over time. Maybe Ford wanted to capture that look. Looking at the GT, it even has the weird doors just like the race cars back then. Surely, they could have simply (no creativity needed) gone with a traditional door, but they DIDN”T. They wanted it to have the sprit of the original.

Btw, who dictates if a design is good enough or not? It hinges on the individual in question. Mays obviously has his own tastes/preferences/goals just as me and you have ours. I’ve seen pics of the more modern interpretation, and I thought it looked better. I think you’d have like it better too had you seen it. My point is, Mays and Ford had their own idea/agenda/goals and that was what dictated the style they decided to go with in the end. Like I said earlier, this is supposed to be an image car. It’s supposed to ooze of heritage. They had their reasons for going with it.

Bottom line: You can’t pretend to know their intension or reasons for going with this specific design. Lol. Unless you have some psychic powers I don’t know of and looked into the designers minds, held a chair meeting with the designers, and/or watched the whole design process and the reasons behind the choosing of each part, you have NO idea of the things that shaped the GT into what it is today.

It still looks like a NEW in and out. It also looks better than almost all of the new so called “futuristic” jellybean/origami designs on the road. And unless Ferrari’s are dated as well, you comparing the rest of the car to todays Ferrari isn’t helping with your “it looks 40 years old” saying.

Again, this is a purpose built niche car, not a grocery hauler or a daily driver. It isn’t for everyone.

As far as trunk storage, the corvette is front engined, GT is mid-engined. You can’t have a trunk storage when the engine takes up that realestate. Lets face it, these are toy cars, much more so than even the vettes. People that own them happen to own multiple vehicles that they’d go grocery shopping, etc… with when the need for storage volume arises.

How many popular midsized RWD v8 passenger cars does GM have on our roads? I can think of one, and it isn’t even out yet. That vehicle is the GTO which is essentially an imported and rebadged Holden. It’s also priced into the mid 30k’s, has 2 doors, and production is limited to 18k s year. It’s an awesome car, but we won’t be seeing much of those and that's a shame. In its price range, it's at the top of my wishlist.

What they need , they’ll obviously bring to the market. At the least, they can do what GM has done with Holden and import the Ford Falcons here to fill that spot.

As for the marauder, yes it can be considered a muscle car. Give me some classifications and tell me why the marauder wouldn’t be considered one. I’m interesting in hearing your take.

 

Why not? A lot of women are moms right? You talked about catering to women right? Wouldn’t they express interest in a supercar with a rearseat and a optional child seat as well? . As for rear engine having a view, they didn’t cut a hole in the trunk, roof, or body panel. They incorporated it into the design. You have to look into the raked rear window to see it.

Why have a sunroof? Look at the car in question and its nature. The cars 8” lower than the T/A you owned (and we thought that was low slung). My 9 year old sister stands taller than it. Face it, sunroofs aren’t big in this niche of supercar nor are they a selling point. These cars are not about practicality or comfort. You wanna be pampered? get a Bentley or a cheaper luxury coupe with a convertible option like the Jags or AMG’s. If you want that in a car, than obviously the GT isn't the car for you.

Why do I get the feeling that you’re just saying that for the sake of the argument. You’ll have to excuse my skepticism. You probably do mean it. I just haven’t found too many people who bought new v6 f-bods only so they can yank the suspension/engine/tranny out so they can slip in the formula’s or T/A’s. Especially when the price difference is but a few grand. Plus, there's always a little pride in owning the top model. I love my GT, but i'd be all over a Cobra given the chance. While you're looking to downgrading, i'm looking to upgrading. Two years and hopefully i'll have a nice 03.

I live by a lake with a beach as well as an environmental park. There’s a nice 2 miles of curvy road in between (with road debris, dust, etc…), but I still enjoy pushing my car through those curves. It’s not like the smallest speck of dust will unsettle the whole car. There has to be good amounts of sand/water and I have to be going at a high enough speed to run such a risk. I’m all smiles when I’m driving through there. I may not enjoy doing this year round here in MN, but the quality of enjoyment is fairly high on nicer days. Year round or not, the L is a much more enjoyable performance truck to drive than the SS. Quantity or quality? Take your pick of enjoyment/experiences.

There’a major flaw with your reasoning. It’s too one-dimensional. Historically, legendary cars have almost always been outside the grasps of the average man. Hemi’s, 427 Ls-6’s, Ferrari GTO’s, etc… are all rare. Even with a car like the Mustang, it would be hollow without expensive rarer version like the Boss’s, Mach1’s, Shelby’s, Cobra’s, Saleens, etc… The most revered and legendary versions are all rare. Porsches, Ferrari’s, GT40’s, Lamborhini’s, Corvettes are all huge icons as well. They are cars every boy/man drools over. Historically, these cars have captured the hearts of many people (most of them unfortunate to own/afford one). To be legend is to have a soul, history, recognition, etc… Many cars have all that without selling in high volumes.

Both may not be off-road vehicles, but they are on-road vehicles for sure. They're all street cars first and formost so don't tell me the H2 isn't in its element. Btw: Off-roading isn’t a game of speed.

 

Uh... you do know that it takes two people to make kids, right? There are just as many dads as there are there are moms out there buddy.

besides, what's wrong with a sunroof? I dunno about you but I don't like being trapped in my 'safety bubble' all day long. i almost never have the windows rolled up and if the car has t tops/convertible top/whatever you can bet its not over my head at the moment unless it's raining or winter time!