Hey, I think the styling on the outside looks very nice.

I just think that GM is flat out retarded for using the above on a brand new car:
-An 11 year old chassis when they have brand new ones popping up left and right these days
-An 18 year old base V6 motor when they have several new V6s that would have fit the role much better both in terms of luxury but also in terms of power
-A 4-speed automatic when they have 6-speeds for both FWD and RWD available now (well I know they do for RWD, and I assume the FWD is viable for GM because Ford already has the 6-speed implemented in several FWD models and that 6-speed was codeveloped between Ford and GM IIRC?)

Maybe the old people won't care or notice that much, but isn't that half the reason GM is in the crappy position it's in today? It did only what it "had to do" instead of what it "could do"?:blah:

 

I won't disagree with any of the above... and in fact, it may sound like I am overly defending the car... These are all valid issues... I just think the car has a place in the market... "old" and reliable doesn't have to equal bad.... GM's pushrod V8's show that pretty clearly I think.

 

The 3800 is a historically reliable motor, but it is not impressively powerful, does not achieve impressive fuel economy, and does not have impressive NHV characteristics at all compared to the competetion and even compared to the other high content V6s GM has in its own cache of parts.

Comparing the 3800's viability in a 2006 model car to the LS2/LS7 is stretch since the LS2 LS7 get have incredible power output and fuel economy (even though NHV isn't up to par with them, it doesn't need to be in the cars that it's put in anyway).

 

I can agree with all that as well... but, I doubt more than a handful of buyers would pay attention in this demographic....

Not really an excuse for them doing it... but I think in the overall picture of things, it's not that big of a deal.... plus, from what Scott said, it will be changed soon anyway.

 

IMRO, Buicks sell like Ford Rangers and GM's compacts always do.

I think there target market is just one that looks at cars with a Coke/Pepsi perspective. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive, not the best and not the worst. But "good enough" on all levels.

Why build in more engineering costs to fish a fish or 2 out of the ocean?

Its kinda bland, and it needs to be that way. "Exciting enough" if you will.. lol

 

You're right, and wrong. Inferior MPG with the 3800? Is there another car out there as large as the current Bonnie/LeSabre that gets 30 MPG and accelerates 0-60 in 8 seconds flat? Didn't think so. So lets cut to the chase...

The 3800 is old. Its not 18 years old, as you inaccurately put it. Yes, the 3800 "debuted" in 1986, however its most recent complete revision was 1995. So call it 10 years old if you want, but they have revised it since then (hence the Series III guise, instead of Series II...did you know the 3800 is SULEV compliant?? ). With that said, the engine is inexcusable in a $30k car. Yes, Buick faithful love it. Yes, even I love it. But I love it in an '01, $24k Grand Prix GT. I recently considered a new GP. I would not even CONSIDER a GP with the n/a 3800 anymore. Old people can appreciate power somewhat, as well. I know my grandfather does The problem is, sure...the Buick faithful love the 3800. But they may also love the 3.9 VVT as well...or the 3.6 HF...

Buick has some decent designs (I like the LaCrosse, personally) with some horrific engine choices. Someone wrote in to C&D this month and said "if the new Lucerne doesn't get at least the same 0-60 and MPG as an Avalon, why even bother?" The target conquest buyers Buick NEEDS to survive are not going to be impressed with the 3800. Hell, I love my 3800...but this is '06. I know the engine will die soon...but it already needed to die.

IMO, the LaCrosse CX and CXS should have the 3.6 HF standard, with a quietly-muffled 5.3 optional on the CXS and standard on the CXL. The Lucerne needs the 3.9 VVT NOW (not next year) standard, and the Caddy Northstar optional...not a watered down, 275hp version. The Northstar made 295 back in '93...is this progress, people????????????

Rant done. Give Buick some real engines, and THEN the crossover buyers will come. Current Buick buyers will love the new cars regardless. But, we need more than the current buyers, methinks...

 

Below. Not above.

 

I clicked your little linky there, Threxx. Wow. So I guess that means all GS400s are faster than all LT1s, right? And that there's no such thing as a bad launch? I've watched my friend's 12 second '00 TA get eaten by a high 13 second Mustang solely because he didn't hook.

Not to derail the thread, but I sincerely hope you get thrashed for putting something that stupid on a Camaro board. And BTW, promoting street racing? Nice

 

Well The 3.8 in those cars is rated at 20/29 & 205 hp
The Avalon, which granted is a few tenths of an inch less long and less wide, but is still in the same size class and side by side the difference in size would be almost immeasurable just by looking... is rated at 22/31 & 280 hp and 0-60 in 6.6 seconds (some mags and independent reviews have rated it slightly better or slightly worse but that seems to be the average and is the time Toyota quotes).

 

Sorry but this car is a waste of time. 3800 base engine, weak Northstar, and they want to be up with Lexus? It looks ok, except the front end that looks a little soft.
Its a boring, big dissapointment.

 

Wow... I don't think I've seen such an obvious mental picture of somebody getting their panties in a wad on the other side of a message board.

It's amazing... a year or so ago somebody posted they got beat twice in a row in their LT1 by a GS400... I came in and said it is possible though I said my Z28 would have pulled on my GS4 up to about 80, at which point after that my GS4 would pull my Z28 and never let up (top out higher). Everybody was like "yeah right... I'll have to see it to believe it". Well here's an extremely rare race to find on video (since finding racing GS400s is pretty rare as is), so I decide to post it and people are still pissed. I've tried to find somebody locally to race me and think I might have found somebody but haven't heard back from him yet.

Oh well... so sorry for upsetting you. There was an f-body in the video so it seems plenty pertinant to an f-body board. Heck... it was posted here in the first place by a member who got beat a little while back.

So obviously you don't like it, but I'm afraid that's your problem.

 

Although we disagree on a lot of things, I have to agree with all of the points above.

GM needs to hit it out of the park every time, not try to figure out what might slip by.

 

I am going to disagree that the chassis is 18 years old. Sure it might have its roots that far back but it has been more updated and redesigned for improvements than what some manufactures would call an entirely new model.

 

Actually, the sticker on the '05 Bonneville on our showroom floor says 30, but what do I know

You were inferring the 3800s don't get anything special for mileage. You helped prove my theory their MPG is spot on with their closest competition. Thanks

As for my "panties getting in a bunch," I just think its a little unwise and a little foolish to infer a GS400 is faster, and provide a link. You are the only person on this board whom I think has done something like that. You are also the only person who always acts like Toyota is #1, on a GM site. Plus, I think street racing is for idiots. Put all that together, added to the fact that you're almost as bad as redzed, and I'm more than happy to point out that link is pretty damn stupid. But that's just me Hey, its your link. I don't care. Its just fun to poke at ya

 

http://www.pontiac.com/specs/specs_c...=models_prices
Hey... what does Pontiac know?
20/29.

I love how you critisize me for "inferring"... yet you flat out said "Is there another car out there as large as the current Bonnie/LeSabre that gets 30 MPG and accelerates 0-60 in 8 seconds flat? Didn't think so. So lets cut to the chase...

To which I replied that the Avalon is just as big, does 0-60 in 6.6, and gets 2 mpg better in the city and on the highway. So the answer to your question is YES there is another car out there (may be more, I just went to the first one I thought of) that not only matches those cars, but beats them. But great way of ignoring that fact and trying to critisize me for "inferring" when you flat out stated a falicy.

In fact I didn't bother to mention this, but the V6 in the Avalon even performs side by side with the Northstar in the Bonneville according to most of the stats I saw online... all while getting much better milage. So pick your poison.

Oh yeah, I forgot, you sell these things for a living. No wonder you're so defensive about them.

I didn't infer anything about the GS400 being faster in general by posting that link. That's just my response to person after person saying it's impossible for a GS4 to take out an f-body. The f-body in that video may have had a weak launch but it certainly wasn't a terrible one. Furthermore, I've never claimed to be able to pull on an LT1 until after 80, so my claims are pretty conservative compared to the results of that one particular race.