Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,080
From: Sterling heights, Michigan.
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by Threxx
When I saw your name on the reply I knew you'd be jacking someone off. I even just about guessed who. Idiot.
Suprise Suprise for me!
You should stop with that Threxx, on a serious note. It doesnt help arguements to go straight to flame.
"-": This indicates a prior insult from [Threxx] in previous posts towards me
I still love him tho'
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by Threxx
My sources are nearly every major editorial writeup and whitepaper I've read that state an all new chassis for 1998 on the accord and 2002 on the Camry.
His source is saying that they look similar underneath to him. I think both of our sources are potentially equally unreliable unless you want to talk to the engineers themselves, which is supposedly also be unreliable because they'll lie to you and tell you it's a ground-up redesign when supposedly it's just a refresh.
In other words there's no answer y'all are willing to accept.
And you might have noticed that the childish remark about my regurgitating buzzwords at Toyota displays for Toyota was what started this thread really going down the toilet.
His source is saying that they look similar underneath to him. I think both of our sources are potentially equally unreliable unless you want to talk to the engineers themselves, which is supposedly also be unreliable because they'll lie to you and tell you it's a ground-up redesign when supposedly it's just a refresh.
In other words there's no answer y'all are willing to accept.
And you might have noticed that the childish remark about my regurgitating buzzwords at Toyota displays for Toyota was what started this thread really going down the toilet.
Care to site an editorial write up? I wouldn't mind it. You still haven't shown up with any credible proof, just excuses. In other words, give me something I can actually find proof in, and I would be willing to accept it. Who said anything about me believing Centric's opinion to be right? I sure as hell didn't. The undersides of a 92 and a 02 Camry do look very similar though. You seem to always be online, so I am sure you could find the time to look up the proof of you allegations online, and make Centric look stupid in the process.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,080
From: Sterling heights, Michigan.
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by RussStang
No, I have noticed that just about everytime you refer to masturbating in any of the threads you are involved is about the time that the thread falls apart, which is happening with more and more frequency.
Care to site an editorial write up? I wouldn't mind it. You still haven't shown up with any credible proof, just excuses. In other words, give me something I can actually find proof in, and I would be willing to accept it. Who said anything about me believing Centric's opinion to be right? I sure as hell didn't. The undersides of a 92 and a 02 Camry do look very similar though. You seem to always be online, so I am sure you could find the time to look up the proof of you allegations online, and make Centric look stupid in the process.
Care to site an editorial write up? I wouldn't mind it. You still haven't shown up with any credible proof, just excuses. In other words, give me something I can actually find proof in, and I would be willing to accept it. Who said anything about me believing Centric's opinion to be right? I sure as hell didn't. The undersides of a 92 and a 02 Camry do look very similar though. You seem to always be online, so I am sure you could find the time to look up the proof of you allegations online, and make Centric look stupid in the process.
Gingle You and me! And me and YOU! Soooo Happy together!!!!! Gingle
Im starting to think you live in my head :blah:
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,579
From: The Land of Pleasant Living
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by Threxx
When I saw your name on the reply I knew you'd be jacking someone off. I even just about guessed who. Idiot.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Well it was previously said that any "Facts" stated by the manufacturer or editorials would just a bunch of marketing hype, so I figured it wasn't worth my time since the parties involved would just say "they're wrong".
For the Accord:
But since you say it's worth it... here:
http://www.internetautoguide.com/rev...a/accord/1998/
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/u...x.cfm/id/2289/
http://www.businessweek.com/1997/36/b3543001.htm
(cliff notes: Honda developed an all new global platform for the 1998 Accord that made it much less expensive to make three seperate versions of the Accord for various continents, as well as making it less expensive to modify for other vehicles based on the platform such as their minivan and SUV.)
For the Camry
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdr...2camry_xle.htm
OK after I found this particular article on the Camry I don't even feel it necessary to post any more editorials. This article goes into greater detail about the ground-up redesign of the camry and its platform than even I car to read.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...13/ai_78638001
Done, and done. Happy?
For the Accord:
But since you say it's worth it... here:
http://www.internetautoguide.com/rev...a/accord/1998/
We think this is true of the all-new Honda Accord. Completely redesigned for 1998 ..... A fantastic new chassis comes with a new five-link double-wishbone rear suspension and a redesigned double-wishbone ...
For its latest generation, Honda's mainstay earned a total redesign
(cliff notes: Honda developed an all new global platform for the 1998 Accord that made it much less expensive to make three seperate versions of the Accord for various continents, as well as making it less expensive to modify for other vehicles based on the platform such as their minivan and SUV.)
CUSTOMIZING CARS. But Kawamoto realized years ago that Honda's long-term success was threatened if the auto maker couldn't make the company's most important car more successful outside the U.S. At the same time, to keep up with the needs of its aging baby-boomer buyers, Honda executives say they needed to substantially enlarge the new U.S. version. The obvious solution to the Accord's woes--designing a different model for each market--was out of the question. Honda may have big brand presence in the U.S., but it ranks only 13th among the world's auto makers. That means it can't afford to spend as much as its bigger rivals--not even on the all-important Accord. While General Motors Corp. budgets a generous $9 billion a year for research and development, for example, Honda gets by with a mere $2.1 billion.
Now, however, Honda may have found a way to customize the Accord for world markets without breaking the bank. The completely overhauled 1998 Honda Accord that will hit U.S. showrooms on Sept. 25 will look and feel nothing like the Accord being introduced simultaneously in Japan, or the one that will debut in Europe next spring. The American Accord will be a big, staid family car, matching the Ford Taurus in interior roominess. The jazzy Japanese car will be a smaller, sportier compact, aimed at young professionals. The European version will be short and narrow and is expected to feature the stiff and sporty ride Old World drivers prefer.
Honda's secret lies in an ingenious frame that allows the auto maker to shrink or expand the overlying car without starting from the ground up. By coming up with a platform--by far the most expensive part of a new car--that can be bent and stretched into markedly different vehicles, Honda has saved hundreds of millions of dollars in development costs. Analysts estimate that Honda developed the Accord for a relatively modest $600 million. In comparison, Ford Motor Co. spent $2.8 billion redesigning the 1996 Taurus.
Now, however, Honda may have found a way to customize the Accord for world markets without breaking the bank. The completely overhauled 1998 Honda Accord that will hit U.S. showrooms on Sept. 25 will look and feel nothing like the Accord being introduced simultaneously in Japan, or the one that will debut in Europe next spring. The American Accord will be a big, staid family car, matching the Ford Taurus in interior roominess. The jazzy Japanese car will be a smaller, sportier compact, aimed at young professionals. The European version will be short and narrow and is expected to feature the stiff and sporty ride Old World drivers prefer.
Honda's secret lies in an ingenious frame that allows the auto maker to shrink or expand the overlying car without starting from the ground up. By coming up with a platform--by far the most expensive part of a new car--that can be bent and stretched into markedly different vehicles, Honda has saved hundreds of millions of dollars in development costs. Analysts estimate that Honda developed the Accord for a relatively modest $600 million. In comparison, Ford Motor Co. spent $2.8 billion redesigning the 1996 Taurus.
For the Camry
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdr...2camry_xle.htm
Redesigned for the first time since 1997, the 2002 Camry receives its first all-new platform in ten years, a platform it shares with the 2002 Lexus ES300. Compared to the 2001 Camry, the 2002 model is slightly longer and wider with a significant increase in height and wheelbase. A 50 mm (2.0 in.) longer wheelbase provides more front and rear legroom and a more compliant, comfortable ride. An additional 70 mm (2.8 in.) of height adds to the Camry's headroom, and made it possible to increase the seat height for more upright seating positions which also make it easier to get in and out.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...13/ai_78638001
Done, and done. Happy?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,022
From: Newhall, CA USA
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Thanks for going through the effort.
However, I know what I see. I say both the Camry is on the same chassis as the 1992 model and Accord is on substantially the same chassis as the 1990 model, based on personal observation.
Credentials:
• I restore cars--as in, I do all the work on my cars, from engine swaps in the Mustangs to complete restorations (in process on the '69)
• Partner in a frame/suspension shop (where I see the cars)
• Engineering degree (admittedly electronic, but the engineers on this board will attest to how much ME content there is in any engineering degree)
• Owner of advertising agency (so I know how things can be spun, how data is fabricated, and how the press just takes things at face value)
And would you do me the courtesy of answering a question I posed regarding your assertion the new Accord is substantially more rigid than the previous one:
What was your methodology? What were the actual results?
However, I know what I see. I say both the Camry is on the same chassis as the 1992 model and Accord is on substantially the same chassis as the 1990 model, based on personal observation.
Credentials:
• I restore cars--as in, I do all the work on my cars, from engine swaps in the Mustangs to complete restorations (in process on the '69)
• Partner in a frame/suspension shop (where I see the cars)
• Engineering degree (admittedly electronic, but the engineers on this board will attest to how much ME content there is in any engineering degree)
• Owner of advertising agency (so I know how things can be spun, how data is fabricated, and how the press just takes things at face value)
And would you do me the courtesy of answering a question I posed regarding your assertion the new Accord is substantially more rigid than the previous one:
What was your methodology? What were the actual results?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by Threxx
Done, and done. Happy?
Actually, I am.
Isn't it better to argue with facts, than talk about whacking off all of the time?
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by centric
What was your methodology? What were the actual results?
Heck, that brings up a good point. The 99+ Silverado, , 02+ Ram, and 04+ F150 have all seen some serious improvements by moving to hydroformed steel as well as well as boxing in the ends and some other tweaks. Most people sane in the mind would say that any time a chassis gains 250-400% in torsional rigidity and incorporates new technology that didn't even exist or at least was not even remotely cost-effective, that it would be an all new chassis.
But I guess by your definition that's not good enough because to the naked eye it may appear similar? Even with the length and width were increased on a unibody chassis which you know is rarely possible without a complete redesign until these recent global platforms have been released with the specific intention to make them more easily modified and reusable?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,947
From: Springfield,OH. U.S.A.
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
I believe bringing back the V8, in the Lucerne, will make it a "Breakthrough" for Buick...it's been toooooooo long since a smooth, quiet V8, resided under their hoods...
And as to the 3800 V6, it has went through many evolutions as well, in the 18 years. You make it sound as if their still sporting carb's and flat tappet cams, cast iron intakes and such...
And since most of our daily driving is still in the same RPM range, which a hydrolic roller, OHV is perfectly at home, power wise and economy wise...Why pass on the added expense of recertifying and OHC 4-v motor, with virtually NO benefit other than knowing it was designed last year???
(There are 285hp/SC versions out there...and are easily modded to be more than competetive with a Lexus...or other.
)
And as to the 3800 V6, it has went through many evolutions as well, in the 18 years. You make it sound as if their still sporting carb's and flat tappet cams, cast iron intakes and such...
And since most of our daily driving is still in the same RPM range, which a hydrolic roller, OHV is perfectly at home, power wise and economy wise...Why pass on the added expense of recertifying and OHC 4-v motor, with virtually NO benefit other than knowing it was designed last year???
(There are 285hp/SC versions out there...and are easily modded to be more than competetive with a Lexus...or other.
)
Last edited by 90rocz; Sep 14, 2005 at 10:00 PM.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Also, Centric, here's some info on the design of the 03 Accord which was not a complete makeover of the new 98 Accord chassis, but rather a significant refinement. I guess I would not call that a completely new platform, but they sure did make some nice improvements to it (which I can tell by my significant seat time in both models if for nothing else)
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2006?m...36652&mime=asc
Click on the technical section to the left for quite a few more topics such as body construction (also related to changes made to the chassis since the body is part of the chassis on a unibody structure).
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2006?m...36652&mime=asc
Click on the technical section to the left for quite a few more topics such as body construction (also related to changes made to the chassis since the body is part of the chassis on a unibody structure).
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,597
From: oshawa,ontario,canada
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by Threxx
Also, Centric, here's some info on the design of the 03 Accord which was not a complete makeover of the new 98 Accord chassis, but rather a significant refinement. I guess I would not call that a completely new platform, but they sure did make some nice improvements to it (which I can tell by my significant seat time in both models if for nothing else)
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2006?m...36652&mime=asc
Click on the technical section to the left for quite a few more topics such as body construction (also related to changes made to the chassis since the body is part of the chassis on a unibody structure).
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2006?m...36652&mime=asc
Click on the technical section to the left for quite a few more topics such as body construction (also related to changes made to the chassis since the body is part of the chassis on a unibody structure).
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 4,320
From: Memphis
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Originally Posted by 97z28/m6
so how do you know if GM didn't do the same?
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,178
From: Payson, AZ USA
Re: Do you think the Buick Lucerne will be a breakthrough model for Buick?
Good grief. What a bunch of pissing and moaning over what Toyota and Honda do.
BTW, I'm with Centric on this. Others, in the field, have frequently stated that Toyota and Honda RARELY ground up redesign anything. By basing their new product on the old product, it greatly reduces development time, and helps to insure that there should not be major quality glitches.
How they spin it to the media, which knows nothing about engineering, may be completely different.
Enough on that.
As for the Lucerne. It looks like a fine car, with a few exceptions. The media completely blasted the Ford 500 for its 203hp 3.0 DOHC engine, when it came out. The 500 has a significantly lower pricepoint than the Lucerne, yet has a "more modern" (the perception is that OHC is more modern than OHV, and has nothing to do with reality) OHC engine, a 6-speed automatic, and available AWD.
People on this forum completely blasted the 500 for using the "ancient" Duratech 3.0. Yet, some are trying to say that it is ok to use the 3.8 and a 4-speed automatic in the Lucerne, because its ok for its demographic.
Excuse my french, but f*ck the demographic. In todays marketplace, you can't just hold what you have (as people have a tendency to die)............... you have to try to attract buyers you haven't had before. As lame as some may think the 500 is, it has had alot of conquest sales (numbers I have read range in the 40% range).
For the $30K starting price, the "perception" of the Lucerne will be low tech, old tech, old Detroit.
That said, I am sure many existing Buick customers will buy it.
BTW, I'm with Centric on this. Others, in the field, have frequently stated that Toyota and Honda RARELY ground up redesign anything. By basing their new product on the old product, it greatly reduces development time, and helps to insure that there should not be major quality glitches.
How they spin it to the media, which knows nothing about engineering, may be completely different.
Enough on that.
As for the Lucerne. It looks like a fine car, with a few exceptions. The media completely blasted the Ford 500 for its 203hp 3.0 DOHC engine, when it came out. The 500 has a significantly lower pricepoint than the Lucerne, yet has a "more modern" (the perception is that OHC is more modern than OHV, and has nothing to do with reality) OHC engine, a 6-speed automatic, and available AWD.
People on this forum completely blasted the 500 for using the "ancient" Duratech 3.0. Yet, some are trying to say that it is ok to use the 3.8 and a 4-speed automatic in the Lucerne, because its ok for its demographic.
Excuse my french, but f*ck the demographic. In todays marketplace, you can't just hold what you have (as people have a tendency to die)............... you have to try to attract buyers you haven't had before. As lame as some may think the 500 is, it has had alot of conquest sales (numbers I have read range in the 40% range).
For the $30K starting price, the "perception" of the Lucerne will be low tech, old tech, old Detroit.
That said, I am sure many existing Buick customers will buy it.