Yup.

And that's the whole point.

The proper response to a 450-475hp Mudstain is a 450-475hp Corvette (which will be faster because it's lighter), AND a 450-475hp Camaro which will be faster BECAUSE IT'S A CHEVROLET.

 

I see no reason for GM to unleash a 500HP monster in a Camaro. The reason being is that they have a perfectly capable Corvette that can handle those specific challenges.
Sure I'd want Chevy to slap the GT500 back but that's just my GM juices flowing and that isn't being realistic.

The C5 Z06 proved that it can be a better vehicle than the pricier Viper and lap faster while spotting the Viper serious horsepower. Did that make the Z06 seem less worthy??? I didn't think so at all.

If GM can make a Camaro with around 450-475HP AND keep the weight down (compared to the GT500's remored 3800lbs) I'd be pretty happy. It would only slightly loose in a 1/4 mile challenge but would make the GT500 owner cry on the track and be a "better" all round vehicle.

The difference in refinement and the "gotta have factor" should give one more point to the Camaro instead of the stang

Adding to Pacer's comment....A 450-475 Mustang in a GT500 should loose to a 450-475 Camaro in 1/4 if the Camaro is lighter wouldn't it???

 

a 450 hp camaro at 3400 or under would hang with or beat a 3800lb 500hp gt500. At this point there is no reason to make a Camaro that powerful. There is no production GT500 to see what it runs.

 

I think they should but if it doesn't sell---then don't bother making another.

Chevy has never made a super high performance Camaro (okay maybe 69 ZL1) but Pontiac sure did with the 89 Trans Am Turbo and even more radical 91/92 Firehawks (okay SLP made 'em--but GM approved) Both these cars were tops in their day.

But the Firehawk bombed in sales--but it was a base of $39,999 USD back oin the day.

So the price point would be something to watch when developing such a high perfornace Camaro. Like damn close to the Mustang.

Great for image and such. If you can afford it, so much the better. Myself--give a 5.3L 6 speed hardtop RS with 17's and I'd be happpy.

Give it the Z06's 427 (drop the dry sump oil system perhaps)--detuned to 475hp, 14" brakes-- and tune the suspension at Nurmberg. An optioanl 5 spped automatic might be neat---for the guys who want to strictly go drag racing.

 

With a 400 HP truck motor coming next year, what's to say that the LS2 performance motor wont grow to 425-435 hp?

 

I'm banking on a gt500 beating Camaro, come on think about it folks has a M*stang ever been substantially been faster than a Camaro? No.......... It had never been like that, why start now? I think gm knows this and knows the history and would want to do things right and have the Camaro AT least as fast as a gt500.

 

I have got to chime in at this point...
I was just at a performance driving school this month, which had about 120 cars attending. The field of cars was very impressive, from Miatas and VW Golfs to exotic Porsches, Masseratti, and Ferraris. The most populous cars there were Mustangs (from a '65 Shelby GT350R clone to 2005 GT's) followed second by Corvettes (1 - C4, a slew of C5's of which 70-80% were Z06 cars, and one single C6). After that, it was a hodge-podge...
BUT NOT ONE SINGLE F-CAR ANYWHERE. NOT ONE.
I was very disheartened by this, given the calling of a quality 2.4 mile road course, I was really hoping to mix it up with some z28 cars (new or old) - but not a single Camaro or Firebird was there.

Now, as for what BBC was saying - oh man... is he right. During instructor's laps on the track, at least 80% were Corvettes and blown Cobras. These cars are it right now. Even heavily modified Porsche 911 and 914's were being raped by the Z06 and Cobras. No BMW comes close - modded or not. It was simply those cars alone that were running the show. I was quite surprised at that too.

These are die-hard road-racing guys, most of which drive their cars on the street too, and the dominant choices were clear... Z06s and blown Cobras.
We can type all kinds of junk on the internet, and babble about stats for this and ratings for that - but the cold hard truth happens on the road and tracks and that's where those two cars are presently duking it out... and it's soooo close, it's a driver's race too. Been there, seen it, done it!

FWIW, I had the most awesome ride in a street car I have ever experienced... a race-prepared 2004 Z06. Instructor let me ride with him for 2 sessions... man, what a car.
2 things to point out...
1) it is unbeleivably loud when you are in a car with windows down doing 130mph...
2) your cheek muscles can actually get sore from smiling for 3 straight days!!!

 

Undoubtedly, another believer that all 9-million people who have bought Mustangs in the last 41 years have purchased the fastest, highest-powered V8 offered in the car.

The "huge" following is probably 60-70% I6's, I4's, and V6's throughout the life of the model. Only a tiny share were race-bred V8 cars like the Boss 302, Mach 1 SCJ, and Cobras.
Product planners will not sell a dedicated missile platform to the BOD for production - at least I hope not!

"In order to compete with the Mustang's huge following, the Camaro would need as good or better performance at better pricing."
Think seriously about that sentence... then think F4 vs SN95.

 

That pretty much wraps it up.

Next topic.

 

It certainly does, and I breathed an audible sigh of relief when I read it.

A top dog Camaro needs to be top dog. The competition will be alot stiffer in the coming years. Can't have much of a halo effect on the lower models of the car, if the high end model is being chewed up by its competition.

 

Agreed - assuming that the power to the rear wheels was ~400 for the GT500 and ~350 for the LS2 Camaro. The LS2 has shown to put down ~340-345 RWHP in M6 GTOs/C6 Vettes. We don't know what the blown GT500 will make for power, but if recent history is any indication (03/04 "390" HP Cobra), then the GT500 is likely to put down quite a bit more than 400 RWHP.

Time will tell - though speculation can be entertainin.

Edit: A final thought....the Camaro definately needs to perform, but as mentioned earlier, it also MUST appeal to more than just us gearheads if it is going to survive. As such, it has to look good, be built well, and have much better ergonomics than the last version (which was one of the main reasons I sold my 99 T/A.....I think I even qualify as a "gearhead").

 

If the Camaro puts out power like the gt500, it should be a special edition car right? I would think a top Camaro could be at that level in very limited numbers without hurting anything. But you still need the Z28 and SS to be $25-$35k to have an answer for the Stang GT and whatever else they come up with to call the other versions of it. Maybe a 5.3 in the Z28 and the LS2 in the SS, but thats just my thinking. Then in my mind they could use a blown LS2 to compete with the gt500. That would make both cars a pulley swap away from being even faster, instead of the gt500 being easier to mod because of some pulley bs.

 

Good thread and good question.

Need and want are different things. I think we want a camaro like that.

I don't see the logic in trying to destroy a GT500 with a NA motor. I don't think it's possible with emissions and daily driving buyers. If GM wants to match and/or beat the GT500 then bring apples to apples. Blown, forged, LS2 with a solid rear. Cut the extra weight and offer a good gear and rear end.
I don't see how a hand built LS7 will be competitive in regards to price.

I see no shame in a cheaper, non FI camaro not being as fast as a GT500. If the camaro gets close in price however, brings a LS7, or goes FI then thats the benchmark. Benchmarks need to be hit, not felt.

That would be great if Pontiac has the high end GT500 competitor. GTO in current form wouldn't be a great choice i think. A redesign with a solid rear, equal weight, and a forged, blown LS2. Then i can run with GT500s and enjoy my comfy seats and room in back for more than one chick.

 

Firebird should get a trim level to compete with the GT500

 

1)Do we want to make a Camaro faster than the mustang GT500?

If NO, stop now. This is okay because the couple lost sales dont matter!!!!! Who cares!!!!! Honestly we need lots of v6 sales to keep the Camaro alive. Suck it up and deal. However...

If YES:

How can we do it.

If the 5.3L (now upwards of 355hp) is cheaper than the LS2 (perhaps 425hp) that might just do it at that. A lighter F5 with 425 hp would be better than a 450hp GT500..... unless....

You fight fire with fire and slap a supercharger on a 5.3L, then every mod a Cobra guy does we can do too. I gotta admit, its awful easy to get 575HP from a 03-04 Cobra. I'd like it to be that easy for power in a Camaro...