I understood, i just don't agree with your line of reasoning (based off opinion and personal observation). There's no concrete evidence supporting your point. Me being a mustang guy has nothing to do with it since I'm basing things of facts. The facts are one thing that's bias proof.

Like i said, if you want the highest concentration of enthusiasts as an average, then the cars you have in mind are the Porsches and Vipers. The cars that aren't sold to the masses. These are the true "enthusiast cars". But if you want the highest enthusiast base/numbers as far as sheer numbers go, look no further than the mustang. Heck, even if a very small percentage can be considered real enthusiasts, that doesn't change the fact that they STILL outnumber every other make/model on the road as far as the enthusiast base.

Can opinions vs fact be argued? I don't know.

The way i see your argument.... it's like somone saying "a larger percentage of camaro sales where v8's", all the while neglecting the fact that the v8 mustangs (while at a smaller percentage) still outsold v8 camaro's and firebirds combined 3 to 1. Like i said, sheer numbers don't lie.

Here's another analogy from our Honda friends. "A viper only makes 54hp per lt to my 120hp per lt " all the while ignoring the fact that the vipers 8.3 v10 has 500 horses and his little s2000 only 240. Again, sheer numbers don't lie.

For the sake of the argument, we'll go ahead and "assume" that camaro enthusiasts on average are more passionate despite their smaller following, but you can't honestly argue that their numbers are more than Mustang enthusiasts..... or that there are more passionate camaro owners than mustang owners as a whole. That's an unsubstantiated claim .

Fact of the matter, i doubt any of this can be proven. But we'll simply agree to the facts. The facts being that these 2 cars are american icons, legends in their own right, and they induce passion that very few mass produced cars (or limited once for that matter) could ever come close to .

 

Well, we agree on the last part of your post I guess.

 

I say that there are stronger fans for Mustangs then there are for Fbods.
As a third gen owner, I see third gens get bashed by most 4th gen owners. The redneck BS stereotype is plasterd over any third gen, and I hear it most from 4th gen owners.
I dont know for shure, but I can bet that 5.0 mustang guys are as cool in the eyes of 4.6 guys.
The battle of "what gen is the best" can pit different gens against eachother, while when I look at Mustang owners, they all group together and rally around one car, no matter what year.
I mean, just look at the new Mustang. If there wasnt such a large following for it, why would they make it look like an older Mustang? To me, the Fbody never had the following that the Mustang has. Its really the "Corvette" for Ford. It has been Fords halo car for 40 years. I have yet to see a more fanatical group of people then Corvette owners, but Mustang owners are up there.

 

Different gens don't really act superior because theres no real clear winner in the Mustang world. 4th Gens are extremely better performing vehicles than 3rd gens, so the owners pick on them a bit. Plus, the redneck image was permanently been applied to 3rd gens in our culture, so its also easy to pick on them from that standpoint...but thats all it is, playful picking, we don't really all think all 3rd gen owners are hillbilly's...It doesn't make the Camaro enthusiast base any more weaker...

 

Well, 5.0's stock are fast, but 350's are just as fast, if not faster? But the 5.0's are accepted? Why? The small block chevy probably has the largest aftermarket for it in the world, and finding parts for a 350 isnt that hard. You cant go to a swap meet without tripping over a set of small block chevy heads every 20 ft.
4.6's out perform 5.0's stock, but do the 4.6 guys knock ont he 5.0 guys? If they do, not to the level that 4th gen guys do. And untill I got onto the internet, I have never once heard the redneck moniker put on the third gen.

Thank you for proving my point. Mustangs owners are tighter then fbody owners.

 

A car who's driver's were so hell bent to drag race, that they cut them, welded them, tub them, roll cages in them, and everything else imagineable - not passionate?

So many of these racers were clogging the bracket racing scene they developed their OWN racing sactioning body - the NMRA - not enthusiastic?

A car that has made many entrepreneurs multi-millionaires, like Saleen, Brown, Steeda, Roush, Belle, and others - not passionate?

People with a '66 GT-350 worth $100k in the garage, driving a Saleen SSC or a Roush Stage 3 worth $50k as a driver - not enthusiastic?

A full 33% of original buyers come back with more money in hand for another new one - not passionate?

A car that has had such a following that it has no less than 6 magazines dedicated to it - not enthusiastic?

Tattoos on their legs and arms...
Rooms full of memorabilia...
Spending $25-150 per year in club dues...
Spending $25-50 per year in rag subscriptions...
I'd say there are some pretty obsessed folks out there!

But you know - that same kind of passion can be found for any of the pony cars or the vette, just in different volumes of people, that's all.

I have a problem with your claim that one car's followers can be any more loyal than the other - regardless of how many - because the population at large is an "averaged" group. Your just as likely to run into a Mustang-crazy person that "lives" the car, as you are to run into a Camaro-crazy person that "lives" the car.
It's like RE5.0 said about the percentages - on a percentage basis it's probably a wash IMO, but by sheer numbers it's a landslide. One more obsessive than the other - I just don't see it.

Heck - you want to see a REAL die-hard fanatic?
Talk to an Edsel owner!!!
Now THERE'S a man who LOVES his car!

 

If you are not basing things on percentages, the most rabid group of people with their cars I have ever seen has to be the owners of old Mopars. These people can even be more finicky about their cars than a vette owner trying to win a Bloomington Gold award.

 

very very true!

Isnt that the truth? While an LS1 Vette guy may laugh at an LS1 powered B-body trying to run 10's in the quarter, Mopar guys dont care whether you're driving a Hemi 'Cuda, Challenger, Charger, Roadrunner, or Dart, if you're into Mopar, you're part of the club in their book!

 

The difference of the 4.6 and 5.0 are minut compared to earlier 3rd gens/TBI/TPI/LT1/LS1. Thats what I'm saying. The 4.6 guy can talk sh*t to a 5.0 guy but he just looks like a retard in the process "I've got 20 more HP than you and teh tecknologi!" 20 horsepower seperates more than 10 years of GT's....meanwhile almost 100 HP seperates 7 years of V8 Camaros (92-98). Not to mention everything else added into the equations. Overall, theres a lot more for 4th gen owners to pick on 3rd gen owners about than there is 4.6 guys to pick on 5.0 guys about.

 

I'm outside the f-bod circle, and so i can't comment on the feelings/attitudes between the 3rd gen and 4th gen (lt1, and ls1) owners.

But on the mustang side, there's mutual respect between all the makes and generations regardless of the hp. A 2003 Cobra owner will not talk down on a 5.0l, and there's a 180hp difference seperating them. Heck, chances are, that Cobra owner probably has a 5.0 in his garage as well (as is the case with a close friend of mine). The 5.0 is still a well respected machine within the Ford ranks.

Then again, back in 96 when the pushrods were being phased out for the modulars, i'm sure the pushrod guys weren't looking at the 4.6 favorably. But that has changed now i think since the 4.6 has proven itself.

 

Actually from my experience (I owned a 5.0 Police Mustang for 10 years, and had a series of 5.0 "second cars") there isn't any sh*t talking between Mustang owners, regardless to what they have. That's a big difference between going to a Mustang gathering & a Camaro gathering. I think someone already pointed this out: Mustang owners are "tight".

You go to a Mustang meet, and it's more along the lines of "What did you do to your car", or "hey, those GT40 heads you got on are great, but they'd work better with 'so and so' cams and 'so and so' intake. Come over and let me show you what I did to mine". There's even appriciation of the occasional guy that comes up in a V6 with a paxton supercharger strapped on (the 3.8 is essentially the 5.0 minus 2 cylinders). None of this LS1 vs LT1, Z28 vs SS, or 3rd gen vs 4th gen cutthroat debates. The rarer the production numbers, the more work done to the car, the better the car is kept pretty much decides the pecking order.

It's one thing to like Camaros better than Mustangs, and you and others here make that point simply. "Sure Mustangs are more popular and have a bigger following, but I simply don't like them!" is very honest and admirable, and I don't believe there's a soul here that will argue a personal preference. Except for the Mach1 and the Bullit, I haven't really been a Mustang fan since the fox cars (and especially since they stop using the 5.0).

But, there's no denying Mustangs popularity, corperate commitment, devotion of enthusiasts, and the all round great history of the car. The 5.0 Mustang of the 80s galvanized support for the car, and the 5th gen Camaro can do the same if GM learns from the Stangs playbook:

1. You need the aftermarket. Don't make your computer codes a state secret, and encourage good aftermarket shops to create versions of your car. The shine tuners gave to the Mustang is invaluable.

2. Make the engine "tuneable". Don't shove it under a windshield or cram it from underneath the car which makes it diffacult or downright impossible to work on without special tools, drastic action, and alot of patience.

3. Don't treat base versions as a stepchild. the base Camaro, while quick with the 3800, was a bore. To make matters worse, there wasn't anything to customize them with. If you wanted more pizzaz, you bought the RS ground effect package, or you went elsewhere.

4. Make variations of the car. One wheel option is pathethic. Making the Z28 look like the base V6 was stupid, regardless as to what those idiotic surveys said (if you ask someone if they want their Cavalier to look like an expensive car, of course they'll say yes! Duh!). Don't be afraid to do an occasional special edition. And I don't mean a $30,000 SS either.

5. Loose the boneheaded performance is everything mentality. Making a car faster is so easy, people have been doing it in their backyard for decades. Put an equal emphasis on livability, quality, and the ability to personalize.

6. And for God sakes, loose the "package" mentality. You can't get one simple item without spending hundreds or thousands on a "Value Package". Sure, Mustang offers "Value Packages" too, but try and order a Mustang and a Camaro the way you want. Mustang is easier, cheaper, and you end up with less junk you don't want.

Camaro has a great heritage. It also has been run into the ground by numerous mistakes it didn't have to deal with before either.

 

thank you. There is only 30-45 hp between L98/LB9 G92 and LT1 guys, and 30-50hp that seperates the LT1 to LS1. I dont understand why LS1 guys look down on third gen guys. I dont understand at all. You try talking cars, and you hear "oh, you own a third gen, wtf do you know" like I dont deserve to talk about cars becaue my car doesnt have 400hp stock? What kind of lame BS is that? This alone is the reason why Mustangs have a stronger fan base then Fbodies. I am a hard core Camaro guy, as you have seen, and I wish that the Camaro had that kind of fan base.

 

How right you are Guy!

I've spent lots of time with "Mustang guys", and I can attest to the fact that they have a great appreciation of Mustangs that are different than their own. 5.0 guys will appreciate a nice SVO. SN95 guys will admire older Mustangs.....yes, even a Mustang II.

I've been involved in this Camaro hobby longer than some here have been aspirating oxygen...and I really can't ever remember such devisiveness. Up until just afew years ago...if someone said Z/28 vs SS...I would have had no idea of what they were talking about. No one EVER thought in those terms before. And all this trashing of previous gen Camaros.....what's up with that?! I don't ever remember anyone calling a 2nd gen a trailer park queen when the 3rd gens came out, or refering that way to a 1st gen when the 2nd gens were released. All this stuff is new to "Camaro World".

I feel that I need to point the finger at someone for all of this, but I'm not quite sure who to blame. In the end, maybe GM should bear the brunt of my disappointment. Since the late '80s..they've given Camaro enough attention to keep it from dying off completely....but not enough focus, concern and resources to make it thrive.

However, I do agree with guion, that a 5th gen....if thoughtfully executed....has the potential to reverse much of this chaos. Before we can take on Mustang in the age old compatriot rivalry, we need to get our own house in order.

Until then...as I peer over the Pony Car fence at the Mustang guys...the grass is looking very green.

 

Whoever says that needs to be bitchslapped by Shaquille O'Neil. I have never heard that in my life, but I don't own a 3rd gen either so I wouldn't know... For real, that has happened you?

 

I agree with Big Al 100%!

The truth is, 4th gen guys do unfortunately look down on us 3rd gen guys. The 3rd gens have been at the bottom of their resale value for awhile now making them relatively cheap to afford for "redneck" enthusiasts. Around here, it's mostly the "ghetto rigged" bandito's I see.

I can remember the 2nd gens being the same way back in the mid '80's. I saw alot of "clapped out" 2nd gens that looked like they were ready for the boneyard. Today, I don't see as many 2nd gens on the road these days, but the ones I do come across are either "fixed-up" nicely or fully restored.

If you think the 4th gen guys disrespect the 3rd gens, you ought to take a look how the C5 owners treat the C4 guys. I've never had a C5'er wave at me while driving the '84 Vette. Even the C3 guys seem to be out to lunch if you know what I mean.

Don't worry there Big Al. Most 4th gens may be faster stock, but we can easily make our 3rd gens faster with better styling too. 3rd gens will always be contemporary "classics" in my book.