Couple of Mustang 40th anniversary articles (good read)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Couple of Mustang 40th anniversary articles (good read)
Originally posted by guionM
Ford also took this same approach with the Mustang II. I posted the story about it awhile back, and Proudpony can probally recite the whole story behind Mustang II in his sleep. Lee Iaccoa (sp?) who had a big hand in the original, took the Mustang back to it's basics (1970s style), and wound up selling over 300,000 Mustang IIs per year for the 1st coupe of years. An obscene amount even by 1970s standards!
You know of what you speak. In fact, Lee Iacocca was bent on taking the Mustang back to it's original chemistry, and followed the same rules to do so. He was in fact taking the car back away from Bunkie Knudsen, who was responsible for the bloated look of the 69-73 models.
Mustangs, on the other hand, strayed from it's roots with the '71-73 cars, which where even by standards of the day, big, sluggish handling, mid-sized cars.
Again, recall that it was a former GM guy that took the Mustang's styling into the elephant years. But to his credit, he also insisted in the big-block cars that have really done the most to make Mustang recognized as a muscle car (aside from Shelby). I mean, who doesn't think about Mach 1's with 428s or Boss 429s or Boss 302's or 429SCJ Mach 1s or Boss 351s... when they hear "Mustang"? And every one of those can be credited to a single GM executive who jumped ship to Ford at an opportune moment!
Oh, and guionM, don't belittle the fat and portly '71-'73 models too much, because until the 2003 Cobra, the 1971 Boss 351 was the fastest Mustang ever from the showroom floor! And they were not too bad handling for the day either... Tops?... Maybe not, but not too bad.
BTW, FWIW, the Fox body Mustangs, while stylistically about as far removed from the original Mustang as you can get, is in every other way pure Mustang: Sedan based, low cost to make, sold at an extremely low price, 2 body styles, simple to work on, great handling (F-bodys simply raised the standard to new levels, but beyond them, there wasn't another 4 seater that could touch Fox Stangs in the 80s) a bookful of options to personalize your car, ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE performance aftermarket, & very impressive racing involvement.
Having just gotten back from the 40th celebration, I am here to tell you that there were more fox-body cars than any other - BAR NONE. The fox body, while definitely the farthest from Mustang's original body styling, has already established itself as a legend in it's own time. I was floored by the volume of these cars on hand. Pace cars, limited ed's, early Saleens, ASC MacLarens, GT's, LX's, patrol cars, 20th anniv models, 25th anniv models, 7-up cars - you name it - all fox bodies were there in droves. They were followed behind in close form by the late version fox cars - a.k.a. SN95 units. I bet there were at least 80 Bullitt cars alone. There were probably 40-50 Zinc Yellow '98-up GT's, there had to be 250 Cobras from '98 up.
I guess if there was any one thing I came away from the show feeling, but didn't expect to, it's that the Mustang has DEFINITELY got a strong foothold in the new generations - both in people and in the cars themselves. I thought I was just "into them", so I was accepting them for what they are at face value. What I just learned is that there are MANY people who could care less what a K-code means, or how many Cobra Jet Mach 1's were produced, but they KNOW that the recent Cobras and GT's have huge potential and can be made to perform in whatever way desired given the money and/or time. It also is VERY apparent that most of the newer cars will be modified to suit the owner, whether it's a body kit, ground effects, custom paint, engine mods, dress-up kits, audio, or whatever... but a look on the show line and in the parking lot will tell you unquestionably that these people want to be different.
It was really quite unique to see the trends... in volume.
Ford also took this same approach with the Mustang II. I posted the story about it awhile back, and Proudpony can probally recite the whole story behind Mustang II in his sleep. Lee Iaccoa (sp?) who had a big hand in the original, took the Mustang back to it's basics (1970s style), and wound up selling over 300,000 Mustang IIs per year for the 1st coupe of years. An obscene amount even by 1970s standards!
You know of what you speak. In fact, Lee Iacocca was bent on taking the Mustang back to it's original chemistry, and followed the same rules to do so. He was in fact taking the car back away from Bunkie Knudsen, who was responsible for the bloated look of the 69-73 models.
Mustangs, on the other hand, strayed from it's roots with the '71-73 cars, which where even by standards of the day, big, sluggish handling, mid-sized cars.
Again, recall that it was a former GM guy that took the Mustang's styling into the elephant years. But to his credit, he also insisted in the big-block cars that have really done the most to make Mustang recognized as a muscle car (aside from Shelby). I mean, who doesn't think about Mach 1's with 428s or Boss 429s or Boss 302's or 429SCJ Mach 1s or Boss 351s... when they hear "Mustang"? And every one of those can be credited to a single GM executive who jumped ship to Ford at an opportune moment!
Oh, and guionM, don't belittle the fat and portly '71-'73 models too much, because until the 2003 Cobra, the 1971 Boss 351 was the fastest Mustang ever from the showroom floor! And they were not too bad handling for the day either... Tops?... Maybe not, but not too bad.
BTW, FWIW, the Fox body Mustangs, while stylistically about as far removed from the original Mustang as you can get, is in every other way pure Mustang: Sedan based, low cost to make, sold at an extremely low price, 2 body styles, simple to work on, great handling (F-bodys simply raised the standard to new levels, but beyond them, there wasn't another 4 seater that could touch Fox Stangs in the 80s) a bookful of options to personalize your car, ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE performance aftermarket, & very impressive racing involvement.
Having just gotten back from the 40th celebration, I am here to tell you that there were more fox-body cars than any other - BAR NONE. The fox body, while definitely the farthest from Mustang's original body styling, has already established itself as a legend in it's own time. I was floored by the volume of these cars on hand. Pace cars, limited ed's, early Saleens, ASC MacLarens, GT's, LX's, patrol cars, 20th anniv models, 25th anniv models, 7-up cars - you name it - all fox bodies were there in droves. They were followed behind in close form by the late version fox cars - a.k.a. SN95 units. I bet there were at least 80 Bullitt cars alone. There were probably 40-50 Zinc Yellow '98-up GT's, there had to be 250 Cobras from '98 up.
I guess if there was any one thing I came away from the show feeling, but didn't expect to, it's that the Mustang has DEFINITELY got a strong foothold in the new generations - both in people and in the cars themselves. I thought I was just "into them", so I was accepting them for what they are at face value. What I just learned is that there are MANY people who could care less what a K-code means, or how many Cobra Jet Mach 1's were produced, but they KNOW that the recent Cobras and GT's have huge potential and can be made to perform in whatever way desired given the money and/or time. It also is VERY apparent that most of the newer cars will be modified to suit the owner, whether it's a body kit, ground effects, custom paint, engine mods, dress-up kits, audio, or whatever... but a look on the show line and in the parking lot will tell you unquestionably that these people want to be different.
It was really quite unique to see the trends... in volume.
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I stand by what I said with only maybe one person understanding it. You can make as many clubs as you want, magazines, and put the car all over TV promoting it, but I will always say that the average Camaro owner is more of an enthusiast than the M*stang owner. You have to factor in that there were many more M*stangs made then Camaros, and I still see way more Camaros at shows then M*stangs, way more. In magazines that cover all brands, Camaros are still the most commonly covered. There are also way more girl owners than there are for F-Bodies, chances are they aren't real enthusiasts. Is the market for 60's M*stangs as crazy as it is for the Camaro right now? Not a chance, 1st Gens are way more sought after, for everything, showing or racing. IMO, the average M*stang owner, is not an enthusaist. Have I met a few, yes, but not like the Camaro guys, not to the extent that they go to to know everything possible about the cars and other GM muscle, and even their competitors. I know some Camaro guys that know more facts about 5.0's than some of the actual owners. Maybe Big Al was right in a way, maybe this should be M*stangGT.com. 
I know some of our "top" people here are somewhat biased to the car (such as Guion) but really, do you think that if Camaro prices were always as low as the M*stang and if the sales figures were the same that the scenario some of you see and describe would be too? Something to think about.
I know some of our "top" people here are somewhat biased to the car (such as Guion) but really, do you think that if Camaro prices were always as low as the M*stang and if the sales figures were the same that the scenario some of you see and describe would be too? Something to think about.
Last edited by IZ28; Apr 18, 2004 at 11:48 PM.
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Posts: 3,180
From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by dan05gtowner
Sounds like a blast!
Proudpony, can you possibly post a pic of the Red GT with the bullitt rims. They haven't been seen on an uncovered mustang yet.
Plus, any info on the commericals or special editions?
Thanks,
Dan
Sounds like a blast!
Proudpony, can you possibly post a pic of the Red GT with the bullitt rims. They haven't been seen on an uncovered mustang yet.
Plus, any info on the commericals or special editions?
Thanks,
Dan
Please, as a gentleman, give credit where it's due if you put this on your site. I have a few others I believe.
Red GT with Bullitt-style wheels
Red GT from Front (that's my 6y/o beside it!
)Both GT's in front of Ford Tech Center
Here's a pic of the cutaway car.
I need to get to bed... I'll try to post some more tomorrow after I get home from work and GET MY YARD MOWED!!!
I think I have rhinos and monkeys in my yard it's so tall...
Last edited by ProudPony; Apr 18, 2004 at 11:14 PM.
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From: Yadkinville, NC USA
Originally posted by IZ28
I stand by what I said with only maybe one person understanding it. You can make as many clubs as you want, magazines, and put the car all over TV promoting it, but I will always say that the average Camaro owner is more of an enthusiast than the M*stang owner. You have to factor in that there were many more M*stangs made then Camaros, and I still see way more Camaros at shows then M*stangs, way more. In magazines that cover all brands, Camaros are the most commonly covered. There are also way more girl owners than there are for F-Bodies, chances are they aren't real enthusiasts. IMO, the average M*stang owner, is not an enthusaist. Have I met a few, yes, but not like the Camaro guys, not to the extent that they go to to know everything possible about the cars and other GM muscle, and even their competitors. I know some Camaro guys that know more about 5.0's than some of the actual owners. Maybe Big Al was right in a way, maybe this should be M*stangGT.com. I know some of our "top" people here are somewhat biased to the car (such as Guion) but really, do you think that if Camaro prices were always as low as the M*stang and if the sales figures were the same that the scenario some of you see and describe would be too? Something to think about.
I stand by what I said with only maybe one person understanding it. You can make as many clubs as you want, magazines, and put the car all over TV promoting it, but I will always say that the average Camaro owner is more of an enthusiast than the M*stang owner. You have to factor in that there were many more M*stangs made then Camaros, and I still see way more Camaros at shows then M*stangs, way more. In magazines that cover all brands, Camaros are the most commonly covered. There are also way more girl owners than there are for F-Bodies, chances are they aren't real enthusiasts. IMO, the average M*stang owner, is not an enthusaist. Have I met a few, yes, but not like the Camaro guys, not to the extent that they go to to know everything possible about the cars and other GM muscle, and even their competitors. I know some Camaro guys that know more about 5.0's than some of the actual owners. Maybe Big Al was right in a way, maybe this should be M*stangGT.com.
I know some of our "top" people here are somewhat biased to the car (such as Guion) but really, do you think that if Camaro prices were always as low as the M*stang and if the sales figures were the same that the scenario some of you see and describe would be too? Something to think about.
Quote"The Europeans have been invited to again tour the country with us and invitations have also been extended to the Mustangers in Mexico, Canada, New Zealand and Australia, to join in on the fun.
THEY MADE IT! I met some of them! Guys from Queensland in fact. They had on their green/yellow colors, and were great guys/gals to chat with.
Can you show me entire Camaro clubs from overseas that have paid to have their cars shipped here to the US for a friggin' show?!?!
Again, I am not ABOUT to say that Camaro fans are not loyal - hell, I KNOW they are.
But you yourself said there are many more Mustangs made than Camaros... how do you think these "many more" got sold? Not by being "unpopular".
Interesting point along the lines of this post...
Ford had a bar chart on display in their tech center that was titled "Mustang owners repurchase Mustangs two times as much as other competitors - 33% versus 17% industry average." And they had bars representing Acura NSX, to Mitsu Eclipse, to Mazda Miata - like 7 cars total.
It was through last years' sales.
These are RETURN buyers guys, not new buys... that is LOYALTY.
As for the "girls" comment...
I ain't touching that one with a 10-foot keyboard!
Are you aware that girls have money too?
They do get into modding their cars.
They do run in NMRA, NHRA, and a boat load of girls run in my autoX club.
There is even an all-girls website for Mustanging and mods... HERE IT IS
I like you man... we share a lot of views, but you need to lighten up a bit on this one. The Mustang is 40... Ford is being controlled by a Ford-family man, the CEO actually LIKES the Mustang, and it's getting a lot of attention and $ from the top brass. It's OK. In fact, it's due for some time at the top. Just keep the faith that a Camaro will come back so we can play together again. I know I do!
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From: Orlando, FL USA
Originally posted by scott9050
A little unfair maybe, but the truth. It was a direct rebuttal to the fact that this person believes that the Mustang has a smaller following than the f-car. Don't get me wrong, I have owned 3 f-bodies, but I have seen much more of a following for the Mustang than I have for the F-body in my personal experience.
A little unfair maybe, but the truth. It was a direct rebuttal to the fact that this person believes that the Mustang has a smaller following than the f-car. Don't get me wrong, I have owned 3 f-bodies, but I have seen much more of a following for the Mustang than I have for the F-body in my personal experience.
I thought you were implying that the Mustang survived not going to FWD in the 80's because of all the Mustang fans making an uproar and that the Camaro died because the Camaro fans didnt make a similar uproar. Yup, thought patterns were on different wavelengths there.
I believe anyone saying that the Mustang has a smaller following than the Camaro needs their head checked. All the facts point to it and its the truth, there are many many more Mustang fans out there than Camaro fans, its the cold hard truth. Each camp does have its diehards though, obviously alot of Camaro guys are really into their cars, but there also ALOT of Mustang guys that are really into their cars as well.
Basically put, I agree with you.
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From: Panhandle of West Virginia
Originally posted by Meccadeth
I think what he's saying is that the Camaro enthusiasts are ussually "more" loyal than Mustangs'. On that count, I agree. Mustang enthusiasts ussually don't know as much about the history, workings, and mechanicals of their cars as much as Camaro enthusiasts do. I'm not saying that about ALL Mustang enthusiasts, just a majority. Where-as there are more Die-Hard Camaro fans...
I think what he's saying is that the Camaro enthusiasts are ussually "more" loyal than Mustangs'. On that count, I agree. Mustang enthusiasts ussually don't know as much about the history, workings, and mechanicals of their cars as much as Camaro enthusiasts do. I'm not saying that about ALL Mustang enthusiasts, just a majority. Where-as there are more Die-Hard Camaro fans...
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From: Panhandle of West Virginia
Originally posted by IZ28
I stand by what I said with only maybe one person understanding it. You can make as many clubs as you want, magazines, and put the car all over TV promoting it, but I will always say that the average Camaro owner is more of an enthusiast than the M*stang owner. You have to factor in that there were many more M*stangs made then Camaros, and I still see way more Camaros at shows then M*stangs, way more. In magazines that cover all brands, Camaros are the most commonly covered. There are also way more girl owners than there are for F-Bodies, chances are they aren't real enthusiasts. Is the market for 60's M*stangs as crazy as it is for the Camaro right now? Not a chance, 1st Gens are way more sought after. IMO, the average M*stang owner, is not an enthusaist. Have I met a few, yes, but not like the Camaro guys, not to the extent that they go to to know everything possible about the cars and other GM muscle, and even their competitors. I know some Camaro guys that know more facts about 5.0's than some of the actual owners. Maybe Big Al was right in a way, maybe this should be M*stangGT.com. I know some of our "top" people here are somewhat biased to the car (such as Guion) but really, do you think that if Camaro prices were always as low as the M*stang and if the sales figures were the same that the scenario some of you see and describe would be too? Something to think about.
I stand by what I said with only maybe one person understanding it. You can make as many clubs as you want, magazines, and put the car all over TV promoting it, but I will always say that the average Camaro owner is more of an enthusiast than the M*stang owner. You have to factor in that there were many more M*stangs made then Camaros, and I still see way more Camaros at shows then M*stangs, way more. In magazines that cover all brands, Camaros are the most commonly covered. There are also way more girl owners than there are for F-Bodies, chances are they aren't real enthusiasts. Is the market for 60's M*stangs as crazy as it is for the Camaro right now? Not a chance, 1st Gens are way more sought after. IMO, the average M*stang owner, is not an enthusaist. Have I met a few, yes, but not like the Camaro guys, not to the extent that they go to to know everything possible about the cars and other GM muscle, and even their competitors. I know some Camaro guys that know more facts about 5.0's than some of the actual owners. Maybe Big Al was right in a way, maybe this should be M*stangGT.com.
I know some of our "top" people here are somewhat biased to the car (such as Guion) but really, do you think that if Camaro prices were always as low as the M*stang and if the sales figures were the same that the scenario some of you see and describe would be too? Something to think about.
Last edited by scott9050; Apr 18, 2004 at 11:52 PM.
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From: At car shows and cruise nights!
Other than what I have witnessed, exactly. What am I suppossed to go by, what you witnessed? I never said there weren't ANY M*stang enthusiasts, read the posts again. I said on average.
Proud, I think we all know the reasons why your car sold more though, especially during the 4th Gen. (we've beem over them a few too many times)
Proud, I think we all know the reasons why your car sold more though, especially during the 4th Gen.
(we've beem over them a few too many times)
Last edited by IZ28; Apr 18, 2004 at 11:56 PM.
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From: Panhandle of West Virginia
Originally posted by SFireGT98
I think maybe I misunderstood you, thus explaining the confusion.
I thought you were implying that the Mustang survived not going to FWD in the 80's because of all the Mustang fans making an uproar and that the Camaro died because the Camaro fans didnt make a similar uproar. Yup, thought patterns were on different wavelengths there.
I believe anyone saying that the Mustang has a smaller following than the Camaro needs their head checked. All the facts point to it and its the truth, there are many many more Mustang fans out there than Camaro fans, its the cold hard truth. Each camp does have its diehards though, obviously alot of Camaro guys are really into their cars, but there also ALOT of Mustang guys that are really into their cars as well.
Basically put, I agree with you.
I think maybe I misunderstood you, thus explaining the confusion.
I thought you were implying that the Mustang survived not going to FWD in the 80's because of all the Mustang fans making an uproar and that the Camaro died because the Camaro fans didnt make a similar uproar. Yup, thought patterns were on different wavelengths there.
I believe anyone saying that the Mustang has a smaller following than the Camaro needs their head checked. All the facts point to it and its the truth, there are many many more Mustang fans out there than Camaro fans, its the cold hard truth. Each camp does have its diehards though, obviously alot of Camaro guys are really into their cars, but there also ALOT of Mustang guys that are really into their cars as well.
Basically put, I agree with you.
Last edited by scott9050; Apr 18, 2004 at 11:50 PM.
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From: Panhandle of West Virginia
Originally posted by IZ28
Other than what I have witnessed, exactly. What am I suppossed to go by, what you witnessed? I never said there weren't ANY M*stang enthusiasts, read the posts again. I said on average.
Other than what I have witnessed, exactly. What am I suppossed to go by, what you witnessed? I never said there weren't ANY M*stang enthusiasts, read the posts again. I said on average.
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I'm not gonna argue, that's my view of the entire thing and I ain't changing it. What I see is what I see and have seen.
BTW, I've had kids tell me the same thing about my car. Also had grown ups say that they'd like one as a "fun/collectors car."
What I see is what I see and have seen.BTW, I've had kids tell me the same thing about my car.
Also had grown ups say that they'd like one as a "fun/collectors car."
Last edited by IZ28; Apr 19, 2004 at 12:54 AM.
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Posts: 1,313
Originally posted by IZ28
You can make as many clubs as you want, magazines, and put the car all over TV promoting it, but I will always say that the average Camaro owner is more of an enthusiast than the M*stang owner. You have to factor in that there were many more M*stangs made then Camaros, and I still see way more Camaros at shows then M*stangs, way more.
You can make as many clubs as you want, magazines, and put the car all over TV promoting it, but I will always say that the average Camaro owner is more of an enthusiast than the M*stang owner. You have to factor in that there were many more M*stangs made then Camaros, and I still see way more Camaros at shows then M*stangs, way more.
. Come on...First you said that "there are way more camaro enthusiasts", and now you switch the argument over to "You have to factor in that there were many more mustangs made than camaro's...." as if to say "sure mustangs have more enthusiasts, but only because they sold more". That's the impression i got. Doesn't make much sense. Almost seems contradictory
.Then there's this whole "average buyer" thing. Lets be honest, the average camaro and mustang buyer is NOT an enthusiast. These are cars that have sold to the masses. The majority are not enthusiasts. In fact, very little are. If every mustang owner was an enthusiast, and decided to show up at Nashville this year, there’d be over 8 million spectators. But around 100,000 showed up. Obviously, enthusiasts as a percentage make up a small portion of sales to the general public….especially in such mass marketed vehicles like the camaro and mustang. You want the greatest concentration of enthusiasts per sales? look no further than Porsche and Viper owners. They’ve got us mustang and camaro guys whooped as far as percentages go. But as far as sheer numbers go, the mustang is king.
I guess we're beating a dead horse since no opinions will change
. We all may have our opinions, but one thing can't be disputed...and those are facts. And to me, that's the best representative we have...and facts tend to be bias proof . You may not like, you may not agree with it, but the sheer numbers don't lie. *gives the old dead horse one last kick*
. Good night.
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From: South Bend, Indiana
I'm just going to come out and say it. I dislike Mustangs. I love Camaros I like the rivalry. Mustang won. I don't care. I still am biased in favor of my love. I don't understand what anyone sees in a Mustang, but to each his own... I still think that on average, and from my experiences, Camaro owners are bigger enthusiasts than Mustang owners. Want proof?
Camaros, especially the 4th gen, are more targeted to a certain group of people, where-as Mustangs can appeal to a highschool girl as well as a middle-aged nun. Of course the Mustang meetings are going to draw more people. That doesn't mean that every one of those people that showed up know sh*t about there cars other than they like driving them
And to be honest, 3,000 meeting up out of over 8 million isn't all that impressive Especially when you add in how many news sites, clubs, and whatever they have to direct them there. If you want to go to an fbody event, theres one big one and ussually the only way you find out about it is through word of mouth. You don't have GM setting up websites for it, you have the enthusiasts doing it themselves.
And if your going to argue that a Mustang gets more attention than a Camaro in a crowd, you are dead wrong.
I like the rivalry. Mustang won. I don't care. I still am biased in favor of my love. I don't understand what anyone sees in a Mustang, but to each his own... I still think that on average, and from my experiences, Camaro owners are bigger enthusiasts than Mustang owners. Want proof?
...but 16-year-old Trelisha Whitehead summed up the reasons why one can.
''It's a Mustang,'' she said yesterday.
''It's a Mustang,'' she said yesterday.
And to be honest, 3,000 meeting up out of over 8 million isn't all that impressive
Especially when you add in how many news sites, clubs, and whatever they have to direct them there. If you want to go to an fbody event, theres one big one and ussually the only way you find out about it is through word of mouth. You don't have GM setting up websites for it, you have the enthusiasts doing it themselves.And if your going to argue that a Mustang gets more attention than a Camaro in a crowd, you are dead wrong.
Last edited by Meccadeth; Apr 19, 2004 at 12:41 AM.