Ah the memories....1986.....a 'little' black Buick that sounds like a hoover.

But it certainly couldn't outhandle or outstop a Vette. 1 outta 3 ain't bad.

 

My entire case from the beginning was that the Vette should get an increase in horsepower, and the camaro should follow. Never did I say the Corvette should be slower than the Camaro. It shouldn't. Duh.

BigBlueCruiser, I don't think you quite see the DMC thing, you see, there is an SRT series, not just 1 car. I understand that GM will have 3 vehicles with an LS2. Two of which won't touch the corvette. I'm just saying why not put the LS2 into a Camaro and share the engine, making everything cheaper for everyone. Also, how many V-8 cars does GM produce in the DMC range? I can think of two, they got discontinued in 2002...

Sorry if everyone has misunderstood the teenager with hormones who does NOT think the Camaro should be faster than a Vette. Both should increase in power.

 

Of course there is. Even GM believed it once. Back in 1968 one of GM's advertising slogans for the young Camaro was, "closest thing to a Vette".

And what about the early 4th gens Z-28's with the exact same motor as the Corvette, only GM advertised it with having less HP?

Some guys like a two seat plastic super sports car, and some guys like a 2+2 sport coupe. There's room for both, and GM knows this.

 

I don't think that area is gray to GM at all. And it makes 0 sense to anyone on the selling side of Chevy cars. Again explain to me how does a Chevy dealership sell a $43K 400hp Vette sitting next to a $38K 450hp Z/28?

Sure it make perfect sense to me as a consumer. "Gimme more car for less, so I don't have to spend 43grand on the vette. I can get a faster car for 5 less."

The Camaro didn't even pull the hot motor(LT4 and LS6) in the last year of production of each body style as some sort of special edition.

Product tiering works and makes GM money. If you want more than 400hp from GM you'll being spending over 40 grand.




The TOP Camaro WILL get the LS2. The Camaro engine lineup ends where the Vette's begins. Simple as that.

I think you're getting equivalent motors mixed up.

GM has a base V8 the 5.3L, then a high performance V8 the 6.0 LS2, and finally a monster motor the 6.4L LS7

Chrysler has a base V8 the 5.7L Hemi, then a high performance V8 the 6.1L Hemi, and finally a monster motor the 8.1L V10

The LS2 is going to show up much more often than the 6.1 Hemi

 

100 1997 Camaros actually did get the LT4, of course the 1997 Corvette was the first of the C5's featuring the LS1.

 

From what I hear the base engine for the '05 GTO & SSR is going to be the LS2.

The logical thing to think is that for the Camaro it will, too. Maybe not as the base but im 99& sure it will be available.

The Camaro has for the most part had the same engine as the Vette for a while. They did offer the 305 vs 350 for a while, too.....so who knows.

 

It only makes sense (without comment on your power figures)...if you intend to compete with a specific model, in a specific segment, and be a class leader. Sometimes it can happen.

Can you imagine how flabbergasted the Corvette team was, when they were told that the CTS was getting "their" LS6?

 

Thats the perspective I've always brought up when the "Corvette Rule" comes up. As long as the Corvette's top model outperforms Camaro's top model, no toes are being stepped on. They compete in two different segments. Even if the top Camaro is close to the base Vette's price, its still NOT a Corvette.

 

In 97 they made 100 SS's with the LT4 in it...but if I recall it was a deal they had with SLP who installed the engines. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Since I rarely "shoot down" anyone without explaining myself, here's what's up and why:

1. Your exact quote was: "Chevy has a stick up its @$$ about Corvette, and frankly I'm sick of it. "

Now if there is a misunderstanding I have about this quote, please explain it to me, but there's NO stick up anyones nether regions over Corvette. Corvette is the one thing that GM has 100% right (even though I'm not hot on the new styling). It's insanely quick, very well made, handles on world class levels, and costs a mere $43,000! There's nothing that can touch it for the price. There's only a couple vehicles that can touch it for twice the price! What's the problem???

2. I'm not a God around here, nor do I try to be. As far as shooting you down, again, when you made the statement regarding Corvette about Chevrolet, a stick, and the place where the sun never shines, my mind goes into "WTF mode". The rest of you post really didn't make much sense to me. Again, if I misunderstood your post, let me know.

3. What's the facination with shear horsepower numbers? Horsepower numbers alone don't mean squat. Last years Z06 was very nearly on par with the Dodge Viper, despite a 20% horsepower (100 horses) disadvantage. Why? because of weight. The Z06 can also keep up with a Viper on the track.

Corvettes are outstanding machines that don't need to rely solely on horsepower numbers to do the job. Sure the Viper and Ford GT put out in excess of 500 horsepower. They also cost over $85,000 and $135,000 respectively. To be honest, YOU aren't buying a car at that price, and neither am I. Again, where's the problem??

4. You 1st say that because GM has a stick up their A** doesn't mean the Corvette should be slower. You say that Camaro can't step on Corvette's toes, but then you use Chrysler as an example of how a multiple cars with the same engine can be sold side by side without worring which one is quicker. Again, I go into "WTF mode", and wonder what exactly you are trying to say. I don't know if you realize this, but you are coming across as taking 2 opposite positions here.


5. It's obvious you have never driven a modern Mustang. The GT is LT1 quick. The Mach 1 is LS1 quick. The Cobra will eat an LS1 for lunch... SS or not. The next Mustang GT will be as quick as the Mach 1, meaning LS1 quick. Performance will go up from there.

As far as the comment about your 305 TBI Camaro, the current V6 Mustang is about as quick. A 3800 F-body would probally beat you. Only a suicidal masochist would go looking for a GT armed with just a 305 TBI.

Yes, the LS1 has spoiled you.

6. Finally, my purpose wasn't to make fun of you, but to entice you think out what you are saying.

Why? Your whole post:
* said you were sick of GM over the Corvette without saying why.
* used the 4 door Charger as a model how GM should treat the Corvette & Camaro.
*Saying a car should have over 525 horsepower with a sub 3000 pound weight. That would basically be a 525 horsepowered Miata. Obviously overkill (and fodder for my twin-turbo 8.1 comment). The Ford GT weighs 3400 pounds, has 550 horses and still does a 3.5 0-60 and a 205 top speed.

Finally, I feel I should tell you the median age of a brand-new Z28 buyer was 41 years old (V6 Camaros was 36) with an annual household income of $65,000 per year. The median age of a new Corvette buyer is 49 years old with an annual household income of $90,000 per year. Mustang GT's is 37 and $55,000 per year. Cobra buyers are well over 40 and making well in excess of $60,000 per year. NEW high performance cars are mainly marketed to us "old" people (quote: "Sorry if the teenager with hormones suggested something out of the old people's ordinary boring lives."). Since sub 25 year olds probally make up about 5% of the buyers of these types of NEW cars (insurence rates, lack of credit history, the reality of actually budgeting and saving for cars like these with other bigger priorities looming), guess us "old" people are the group that car makers target.

GM needs to hear h*ll from enthusiasts to be motivated to get things done. Their management structure sucks in that it takes forever to get anything through the system that isn't a matter of life & death. But although GM tends to be late to the party or even ends up at the wrong address, they eventially get it right better than anyone else does.

In about 3-4 years, GM is going to have alot of amazing stuff out. Cheap RWD sport cars, RWD sports sedans, a "Chevrolet Performance Coupe", turbochargers, superchargers, and a mind boggling array of products that will make us feel like kids in a candy store. Chrysler is the 1st with some big guns, and upcoming Mustangs and SVTs are going to be pretty amazing. But if GM does everything they are trying to do, crying about 525 horses in a Miata-weight vehicle is going to seem like nothing more than pouty faced whining.

 

I'm NOT God, but I fully grasp your idea.

If I'm not mistaken, there were a few years where the top Camaro was quicker than the base Corvette (68 & 69?), so there's a precident.

But these Camaros were price alongside or above base Corvettes too.

Anyone willing to pay $43,000 or more for a Camaro?

 

I know that, at least for the SSR, this is correct.

You can have a Corvette sit next to a Camaro, with the Camaro having more power all day long, and still sell all your Vettes. Vette buyers DO NOT even look/think about a Camaro when coming in. I would see this being a factor, at most, 2% of the time. To be honest, most Vette buyers don't know/care what the exact horsepower figures are on the Vette that they want. They know it's fast, it's a Vette. They've just always wanted a Vette since they were kids, and now they're getting one.

Since I get to sell all these different vehicles from all these different manufacturers (except Pontiac), I'm very excited about all the test drives all be going on (except for Vettes and Vipers. No one gets to test drive those). Oh yeah, the money won't be so bad, either.

I'll always root for the Chevy, though.

 

Generally speaking, in the late '60s early '70s......Corvette's base engine ( L-48), was Camaro's mid-level engine.

 

Aren't you thinking about the 427 cid Yenkos, Bergers, Danas and other Supercars? I don't think I'd lump these dealer special offerings in with all the other Camaros. Now COPO Camaros or the ZL-1 would be different animals altogether as they were in fact available from the factory.
Tough to say. However some people are in fact buying the Berger/Dick Harrell tribute Camaro, and that lists for $85,000.

If a new limited/special edition 427 cid Camaro street racer (nee Z-28 ) were to be priced at $43,000 I know I'd definitely consider it.

 

Because there aren't thousands of buyers out there that want performance but can't afford the luxury equipment. The fact that SS's stomped the snot out of Z28's in the sales department for the last few years of the F4 run proves it. There wasn't a huge difference in performance between the cars, most of the difference was due to the tires they wore, not the CAI hoods and other stuff.

"Afford" is a relative term anyway. Over 5 or 6 years at 2.9%, an MSRP difference of $5000 really isn't that much on a monthly payment, especially to someone who is looking at a $28,000 to $33,000 car in the first place. If you are that close to the cusp on whether or not you can afford the car, you're better off not buying either of them. Go get a Cobalt...

Heck, this basically describes me to a "T"... I went looking for a stripped 6-spd Z28 with T-tops and ended up with a full-book SS. Why? Well, dammit, it didn't make any sense from a resale perspective to buy a Z-28 when I knew that the SS would be more valuable in 6 years, the insurance rates were identical, and the difference in monthly payment wasn't enough to bother me. Stepping up to a Corvette would have been a huge issue in that I would have ended up paying about $15,000 more than the ~$27,000 I ended up paying for my SS. The payment jumped from ~$520/month to over $700/month. Wifey would have skinned me alive...

Make no mistake either, I'm a Camaro fan, but I LIVE, BREATHE and BLEED Corvettes. If anyone is going to make a sacrifice to own a Corvette over a Camaro, it's gonna be me.

Most of the late F4 buyers were not what most folks would consider the traditional mullet-headed Camaro owner from the 1970's... most of the high content cars were sold to relatively older folks who were making good money and wanted a toy for $10,000 (or more...) less than they could buy a Corvette. I noted that at the last Bowling Green event, the crowd driving SS's was much older and seemed much more professionally oriented than I ever would have expected.

Z06's are another example of the way the line should be structured. Z06's ARE NOT stripped cars. They've got pretty much all the creature comforts a base Corvette has... GM intentionally moved away from the "decontented" Corvette idea that had thrown around for years during and before the C5 program. It just doesn't make any sense.