"American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
02-09-2005, 05:46 PM
#46
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
One more thing on the Vibe. If its a GM car, what platform is it? A Cavalier? Delta? Zeta?? 
I don't mean to be a jerk, but c'mon man...what's it based off of? You think Pontiac was designated its OWN platform for a 50k/year small car? Not likely. Vibe has exceeded even GMs modest expectations, but you tell me...how is it a GM car and not a re-badged Toyota if GM has NO PLATFORM REMOTELY LIKE IT???
I don't mean to be a jerk, but c'mon man...what's it based off of? You think Pontiac was designated its OWN platform for a 50k/year small car? Not likely. Vibe has exceeded even GMs modest expectations, but you tell me...how is it a GM car and not a re-badged Toyota if GM has NO PLATFORM REMOTELY LIKE IT???
02-09-2005, 06:19 PM
#47
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by Jason E
One more thing on the Vibe. If its a GM car, what platform is it? A Cavalier? Delta? Zeta?? I don't mean to be a jerk, but c'mon man...what's it based off of? You think Pontiac was designated its OWN platform for a 50k/year small car? Not likely. Vibe has exceeded even GMs modest expectations, but you tell me...how is it a GM car and not a re-badged Toyota if GM has NO PLATFORM REMOTELY LIKE IT???
I don't mean to be a jerk, but c'mon man...what's it based off of? You think Pontiac was designated its OWN platform for a 50k/year small car? Not likely. Vibe has exceeded even GMs modest expectations, but you tell me...how is it a GM car and not a re-badged Toyota if GM has NO PLATFORM REMOTELY LIKE IT???The Matrix and the vibe are built on the corrola platform. Have you ever been in a vibe? Seriously, does the interior look toyta quality? Its the same crap as GM's small cars up until this year. GM designed the car, they did not build the platfom. It does use toyota parts but was a GM idea:
"The idea for a tall, sporty hatchback with SUV styling cues originated with General Motors which was looking for a way to attract new, younger buyers to Pontiac. GM worked closely with Toyota's design and engineering staff during the 25 months from late 1999 to early 2002 that it took to develop the Vibe. Toyota, who was also interested in attracting younger buyers, wanted their own version of the Vibe, but due to limited production capacity at NUMMI decided to build their own version in Cambridge, where the Toyota Corolla is already being built."
Last edited by falchulk; 02-09-2005 at 06:25 PM.
02-09-2005, 06:34 PM
#48
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by Jason E
I love people who buy imported products, then wonder why the US economy is in such poor shape. There's no loyalty in this country to its own companies. I buy anything I can made by an American manufacturer because if we keep it up, we won't make anything someday...
Then some Viagra crazed corporate schmuck somewhere out there gets to go 'team building' in the Bahamas for a week while I'm stuck tossing money in the garbage.
No more for me. I've been there for years, bought many American cars. Quid pro quo, Clarise. Time for them to get their collective piles of **** together and pay us back for our loyalty.
02-09-2005, 06:53 PM
#49
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by Jason E
One more thing on the Vibe. If its a GM car, what platform is it? A Cavalier? Delta? Zeta?? I don't mean to be a jerk, but c'mon man...what's it based off of? You think Pontiac was designated its OWN platform for a 50k/year small car? Not likely. Vibe has exceeded even GMs modest expectations, but you tell me...how is it a GM car and not a re-badged Toyota if GM has NO PLATFORM REMOTELY LIKE IT???
I don't mean to be a jerk, but c'mon man...what's it based off of? You think Pontiac was designated its OWN platform for a 50k/year small car? Not likely. Vibe has exceeded even GMs modest expectations, but you tell me...how is it a GM car and not a re-badged Toyota if GM has NO PLATFORM REMOTELY LIKE IT??? and I went there one time to drop of something to a customer, but I only went as far as the entrance lobby 
. The guy told me if you work there you get a good deal on the cars, so naturally many employees drove a Corolla, Prizm, Tacoma, etc. Said he paid something like 15 or 20% off. I didn't ask much as I wasn't going to get a hook up and didn't care for the cars, lol.Jason is also right about the tarriffs. I remember them talking about it on the news way back in the day of the early 90's on the News. They speculated about all the foreign automakers building cars in the US. They mentioned positives like more employments and all, helping to reduce the unemployment rates. This is the only positive I see in all this.
I personally like the Corolla as I had a rental before, but I would NEVER buy one because they are threatening my beloved GM's spot as Numero Uno
02-09-2005, 08:41 PM
#50
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by jkipp84
I bought a Toyota because happen to believe loyalty is a 2 way street. I had to stop the madness. I buy the American type of vehicle I'm looking for and whamo - resale value takes a huge dump. I lose thousands for no reason other than I was being a lemming and jumping off the cliff.
Then some Viagra crazed corporate schmuck somewhere out there gets to go 'team building' in the Bahamas for a week while I'm stuck tossing money in the garbage.
No more for me. I've been there for years, bought many American cars. Quid pro quo, Clarise. Time for them to get their collective piles of **** together and pay us back for our loyalty.
Then some Viagra crazed corporate schmuck somewhere out there gets to go 'team building' in the Bahamas for a week while I'm stuck tossing money in the garbage.
No more for me. I've been there for years, bought many American cars. Quid pro quo, Clarise. Time for them to get their collective piles of **** together and pay us back for our loyalty.
You say American cars are a pile of **** over resale value? Not much I can say there. But I don't think the resale situation is quite so bad as everyone makes it out to be. Is Toyota higher? Yes. Does that mean the Colorado you could have bought is a POS? Not likely. But to each their own. Enjoy your Tacoma, as they are nice trucks...but I don't think an American derivative is a pile of crap merely because the Tacoma holds better resale. Quite frankly, I think the new Colorado is a fantastic truck.
02-09-2005, 08:45 PM
#51
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by Jason E
Oh boy...time to clean up some misconceptions around here...
1) The Vibe IS a rebadged Matrix, which is nothing more than a jacked up Corolla. I know. I sell them. The cars are built in the joint venture NUMMI plant in Fremont CA. It is a joint venture factory. Its a Toyota in all but the styling and the radio. And what's funny is that the anti-GM bias is so huge against cars like the Matrix that I actually saw a customer complain about the radio in a long-term road test Automobile Magazine had for a Matrix. Can you believe it???? That was the ONLY obvious non-Toyota component, and the goofball bashed it because he couldn't read the display. I have news for you...ever try reading a Toyota LCD clock with sunglasses on? RIGHT....
2) The Chinese engines and Japanese transmissions in the Equinox are a stop gap. The 3.9 SHOULD be going in the Equinox and Torrent for '07. GM has excess plant capacity in China that needs to be used...hence the engine importation. The Japanese 5 speed AT is only because GM's own 6 speed won't be online for another year or two. I bring that up because some people above mentioned the domestics using foreign components. Typically that does NOT happen. The Honda engine in the VUE? That's because GM got some engines dirt cheap because of Isuzu diesels it sold Honda for the home market...NOT because GM has long term plans for using Honda engines, or because GM can't make their own!!!!!!!!
3) Japanese manufacturing became popular in the U.S. because of tarrifs. I believe foreign pickups STILL are subject to a 20% import tarrif!!! At least they were until the mid-90s...which is about the last time you ever saw an imported pickup anyway besides a Nissan!
4) When you buy that Subaru, owned 20% by GM, most of the profit STILL goes to Fuji Heavy Industries...whether it was built here, whether its part GM ownership or not. NO ONE can argue that.
5) I refuse to buy a Torrent until the 3.9 engine comes out. If they keep the Chinese 3400 in it, I will NEVER buy one. I already have customers complaining over it!
I love people who buy imported products, then wonder why the US economy is in such poor shape. There's no loyalty in this country to its own companies. I buy anything I can made by an American manufacturer because if we keep it up, we won't make anything someday...
Its such a shame, but completely inevitable. "Made in the USA" may not always mean what it used to, but in a lot of cases it still does. A Honda built in OH is still a foreign car. And as for the Canada argument, leave them out of it...they buy more American brands on a percentage basis than we do!! They do more to support our products than we do...a shame.
1) The Vibe IS a rebadged Matrix, which is nothing more than a jacked up Corolla. I know. I sell them. The cars are built in the joint venture NUMMI plant in Fremont CA. It is a joint venture factory. Its a Toyota in all but the styling and the radio. And what's funny is that the anti-GM bias is so huge against cars like the Matrix that I actually saw a customer complain about the radio in a long-term road test Automobile Magazine had for a Matrix. Can you believe it???? That was the ONLY obvious non-Toyota component, and the goofball bashed it because he couldn't read the display. I have news for you...ever try reading a Toyota LCD clock with sunglasses on? RIGHT....
2) The Chinese engines and Japanese transmissions in the Equinox are a stop gap. The 3.9 SHOULD be going in the Equinox and Torrent for '07. GM has excess plant capacity in China that needs to be used...hence the engine importation. The Japanese 5 speed AT is only because GM's own 6 speed won't be online for another year or two. I bring that up because some people above mentioned the domestics using foreign components. Typically that does NOT happen. The Honda engine in the VUE? That's because GM got some engines dirt cheap because of Isuzu diesels it sold Honda for the home market...NOT because GM has long term plans for using Honda engines, or because GM can't make their own!!!!!!!!
3) Japanese manufacturing became popular in the U.S. because of tarrifs. I believe foreign pickups STILL are subject to a 20% import tarrif!!! At least they were until the mid-90s...which is about the last time you ever saw an imported pickup anyway besides a Nissan!
4) When you buy that Subaru, owned 20% by GM, most of the profit STILL goes to Fuji Heavy Industries...whether it was built here, whether its part GM ownership or not. NO ONE can argue that.
5) I refuse to buy a Torrent until the 3.9 engine comes out. If they keep the Chinese 3400 in it, I will NEVER buy one. I already have customers complaining over it!
I love people who buy imported products, then wonder why the US economy is in such poor shape. There's no loyalty in this country to its own companies. I buy anything I can made by an American manufacturer because if we keep it up, we won't make anything someday...
Its such a shame, but completely inevitable. "Made in the USA" may not always mean what it used to, but in a lot of cases it still does. A Honda built in OH is still a foreign car. And as for the Canada argument, leave them out of it...they buy more American brands on a percentage basis than we do!! They do more to support our products than we do...a shame.
Maybe that'll shut some people up for once.
02-09-2005, 08:47 PM
#52
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by falchulk
The Matrix and the vibe are built on the corrola platform. Have you ever been in a vibe? Seriously, does the interior look toyta quality? Its the same crap as GM's small cars up until this year. GM designed the car, they did not build the platfom. It does use toyota parts but was a GM idea:
"The idea for a tall, sporty hatchback with SUV styling cues originated with General Motors which was looking for a way to attract new, younger buyers to Pontiac. GM worked closely with Toyota's design and engineering staff during the 25 months from late 1999 to early 2002 that it took to develop the Vibe. Toyota, who was also interested in attracting younger buyers, wanted their own version of the Vibe, but due to limited production capacity at NUMMI decided to build their own version in Cambridge, where the Toyota Corolla is already being built."
"The idea for a tall, sporty hatchback with SUV styling cues originated with General Motors which was looking for a way to attract new, younger buyers to Pontiac. GM worked closely with Toyota's design and engineering staff during the 25 months from late 1999 to early 2002 that it took to develop the Vibe. Toyota, who was also interested in attracting younger buyers, wanted their own version of the Vibe, but due to limited production capacity at NUMMI decided to build their own version in Cambridge, where the Toyota Corolla is already being built."
What you propose as a Pontiac-designed car is like saying Chevy had a hand in designing the Prizm. We all know the Prizm is a blatant rebadge of a Corolla. Just as a Vibe is a Matrix, only it hides it a little better.
And by the way, F1, indeed I believe Vibe is outselling Matrix
I was so proud because Toyota projected twice the sales GM did, and yet I think at this point its almost the opposite! Vibes are our best selling Pontiac, of at least 4-5 per month.
02-09-2005, 08:52 PM
#53
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
One more thing about the Vibe interior, to anyone who may be familiar with them. Check the steering wheel...its Toyota. The shift pattern on the console for the AT? Toyota. The shifter in the 6 speeds? Pulled straight from a Celica, me thinks...
See, Toyota can make a somewhat plasticky interior too!
See, Toyota can make a somewhat plasticky interior too!
02-09-2005, 08:57 PM
#54
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by KillerTA
Great post!!!!!!!!! Maybe that'll shut some people up for once.
Maybe that'll shut some people up for once.I'd love to think so, but highly doubt it. My theory will annoy any foreign car owner here. No flames meant to anyone by the way...to each their own. But it seriously annoys the crap out of me, this topic. I live, eat, sleep and die cars, specifically American cars. I used to be pro-GM and anti-Ford. Now? I just want the two to live on, and for people to give them the respect they deserve. My GP in 26k miles has been flawless. My Z in 4 years has eaten a PS pump (my fault...I wrecked a hose when I was working on it and didn't realize it) and the typical water pump. But, being an 8 year old car now with 57k, that's acceptable I think. I just took in on trade an '00 GP GT with 169k on it...ran great!
The resale value is not there yet, but the quality sure is. Domestics just need a fair chance...like I said, my fiance and I will sign up for a Torrent the second they put the 3.9 in it. Me? I'm re-financing the GP for 3 years to run the wheels off it. It'll make a great winter beater when my 5th gen shows up
Sorry for being a post ***** tonight, but like I said before...I feel more strongly about this topic than I do the F body coming back!
02-09-2005, 09:06 PM
#55
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by jkipp84
I bought a Toyota because happen to believe loyalty is a 2 way street. I had to stop the madness. I buy the American type of vehicle I'm looking for and whamo - resale value takes a huge dump. I lose thousands for no reason other than I was being a lemming and jumping off the cliff.
In my immediate family (wife/parents/etc) we have 5 mid late 80s/90s GM vehicles [4 Chevy and 1 Pontiac (6000, lol)] with over 200k on the odometers w/ no major work. Major Quality problems???
Then some Viagra crazed corporate schmuck somewhere out there gets to go 'team building' in the Bahamas for a week while I'm stuck tossing money in the garbage.
No more for me. I've been there for years, bought many American cars. Quid pro quo, Clarise. Time for them to get their collective piles of **** together and pay us back for our loyalty.
Last edited by Chrome383Z; 02-09-2005 at 09:14 PM.
02-09-2005, 10:50 PM
#56
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by falchulk
The profit argument has no weight becuase the profit from the Titan goes to feed people in Tennesee who otherwise would live in poverty.
This is simply not true. The Titan, Armada, Quest and maybe the QX56 are made in Canton Mississippi. The Smryna plant now makes Altimas, Maximas, Sentras, Pathfinders, Xterras, and Frontiers. Yes the Smyrna plant might employ many Tennesseans and has been a catylist for growth in Middle Tennessee. But consider that Nissian has been stealing sales away from the Big 3 for 35 years. Detroit is America's unoffical hellhole of abandoned factories, ghettos, and a ridiculus crime rate. Michigan has the highest unemployment rate in the country. So you have to consider how many Americans have Japanese companies put out of work versus how many they have put to work.
02-10-2005, 03:25 AM
#58
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
[QUOTE=Chrome383Z]Resale value is perception by the public, which honestly I could point fingers at Consumers Guide. These guys would get wet over a Go-Kart if it was made overseas, cmon.[/quote[
Somehow, my perception was my experience with it. I guess 'Consumer Guide' or whatever wasn't there every time I traded in a car.
I guess where I said every single American made car had 'Major Quality' problems was out of line.
I never said that, sport, so don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
You're right, let the our execs make idiotic calls, what the hell. They're paying taxes, so that's cool.
Once again, we seem to have come across a reading comprehension issue. What is it with you? I don't recall saying anything about their poop not stinking. You seem to have missed the part where I mentioned having purchased American cars in the past. I'll say it again for your comprehension issue - I have purchased American cars in the past. I lose too much money trading them in. I am sick of this. I will not have this problem with the Taco.
As for the 'move to Japan' comment, that's just ignorant.
I purchased a Toyota, explained why, never flamed anyone, now you crawl out of your litter box and decide to tell me to move to Japan? FU, pal. If the brand of my car in the driveway is the only means by which you judge someone's patriotism, you're a complete idiot.
Somehow, my perception was my experience with it. I guess 'Consumer Guide' or whatever wasn't there every time I traded in a car.
Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
In my immediate family (wife/parents/etc) we have 5 mid late 80s/90s GM vehicles [4 Chevy and 1 Pontiac (6000, lol)] with over 200k on the odometers w/ no major work. Major Quality problems???
I never said that, sport, so don't put words in my mouth, thanks.
Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
Let me remind you Foreign company execs can live TAX FREE for 10 years when they come over here. Who do you think are the top dawgs at these "Foreign" - "American" plants here in the USA. Guys on VISAS. AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY TAXES. Then after 10 years, Exec goes back to Japan, they send another Exec over. Cycle repeats. Happens at the plants in my town all the time. BULLSH!T IMHO. Lutz may be rich but at least he contributes his fair share to the IRS, and I'm sure its a pretty penny too.
Originally Posted by Chrome383Z
I still think American vehicles are and have been better then their Foreign conterparts. Some people in the public think if its Foreign "their **** doesn't stink". I guess I don't understand that. If you people like it so much why don't you just buy a one way ticket to Japan?!
As for the 'move to Japan' comment, that's just ignorant.
I purchased a Toyota, explained why, never flamed anyone, now you crawl out of your litter box and decide to tell me to move to Japan? FU, pal. If the brand of my car in the driveway is the only means by which you judge someone's patriotism, you're a complete idiot.
02-10-2005, 03:31 AM
#59
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by Jason E
Not so sure what you've been driving for American cars, but consider this. Rather than take out a home equity line, I'm refinancing my GP to pull equity out. I purchased the car 15 months ago for $13,500 (then NADA retail) with 22k on it. The car now has 48k and is still worth $12,100, per NADA. I lost an astounding $1,400 in 15 months and 26k miles. Not bad, right? Or how about this...I purchased the Z28 in March 2001 for $14,500, when it had an average retail of $16,100. 4 years later its still worth $11,000, again average retail. So I lost $5k on a car I've had for 4 years and put 16k on...again, not that bad.
Originally Posted by Jason E
You say American cars are a pile of **** over resale value?
Originally Posted by Jason E
Not much I can say there. But I don't think the resale situation is quite so bad as everyone makes it out to be. Is Toyota higher? Yes. Does that mean the Colorado you could have bought is a POS? Not likely. But to each their own. Enjoy your Tacoma, as they are nice trucks...but I don't think an American derivative is a pile of crap merely because the Tacoma holds better resale. Quite frankly, I think the new Colorado is a fantastic truck.
I cross-shopped the Colorado and found it to be a bit cheaper feeling than the Taco. I also did my research. Taco was a better all around.
02-10-2005, 08:36 AM
#60
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Re: "American" Vs "Foreign" Cars and Trucks…should be “buy American”?
Originally Posted by KillerTA
Could you please tell me which foreign manufacturers use mostly american parts? I bet theres only a few if any.
All domestic manufacturers use a majority of domestic parts in their cars unless it's a rebaged import.
All domestic manufacturers use a majority of domestic parts in their cars unless it's a rebaged import.
The Nissans built in North America use mostly prats produced in North America...it's simple economics and I think that's pretty much true of all "foreign" manufacturers whith plants in the US.
Labor costs are but one consideration in the price of a part; there is also a huge price differential in shipping when shipping a part by truck from say, northern Illinois to Tennessee as compared to bringing the same part over from Japan.