Yeah, that could work, except that the CTS-V is more likely to be used as a DD for it's utility and luxurious appointments. As far as performance goes, the GT500 would likely destroy it, at least in straight line (probably on a road course as well). However, the CTS-V is MUCH more liveable, as it comes with lots of luxury gizmos the Mustang doesn't, and has a real usable backseat, as well as 4 doors.

I don't see the CTS-V being considered as much of a toy as a GT500. People aren't going to be buying up CTS-Vs and garaging them. The GT500 got put up against the Vette simply because Chevy has nothing else in their corner, and because both cars are iconic in American culture.

 

No - I agree that it is one issue. See my "Prius vs Mustang" statement above. I don't at all believe it to be the "ultimate equalizer".

What is "too different"? Further, might my "too different" be different than your "too different"? (hope you followed that, LOL). It is all perspective, but lets look at your next statement...

No, I don't agree - and neither do a number of car mags that have made that exact comparison. Were they flawed or in error? Further, many on this very Forum went absolutely nuts when those mags did that exact comparison you just said is flawed, and the Z06 came out so close in performance - even with the huge difference in price.

But like I told Threxx....we can agree to disagree. It is a difference of opinion.

Ok, I will tend to agree with that - though the Charger isn't even out yet, so it is hard to do a real comparison.

By the same token, I think the GTO and GT500 (or Mustang GT, for that matter) have similar missions, though they diverge somewhat on price (both ways). Lets expound on that for just a second.

The lowest priced car I just mentioned is the Mustang GT. The middle is the GTO. The highest is the GT500. Everyone seems to agree that the Mustang GT and GTO should be compared. Some disagree that the GT500 and GTO should be compared due to the difference in price. Lets break that down.

Mustang GT Premium M5 MSRP: $27,040
GTO M6 Base MSRP: $33,290
GT500 Base MSRP (with $1300 gas guzzler): $42,625

BTW....so I don't get accused of using the base price of the Mustang when that doesn't show reality, I went to the website of a very large dealer in my area - Beach Ford - and took an average of all Mustang GT M5 Coupes they had on their lot (22 of them). Average price was $26,701, so I'm certainly not low-balling the Mustang MSRP. Anyway...

The GTO is $6250 (or 23%) more expensive than the Mustang GT

The GT500 is approximately $9350 (or 28%) more expensive than the GTO.

Interesting. $6250 (23%) difference is ok, but $9350 (28%) is not. But then again, see "too different" discussion above.

Also, please note the following:

- MSRP of actual on-the-lot GT500s might be more or less (options will obviously make it more).
- There is no 07 GTO, so it is not possible to compare prices directly.

To turn onto the other side of this disagreement, obviously some folks (including a mag or two) think that the GT500 and Vette should be compared, and thus do. My opinion is that it is not a good comparison (regardless of the stats).

In the end, all of the above are compared, whether some agree with the comparison or not.

/me ceases beating on this horse.

Bob....who just wasted his whole damn lunch break doing this.

 

You are thinking of the Challenger. He meant the current Charger.

 

Errrr. Duh. My goof.

Ok, then I'll modify that to say I think it will be a good comparison for the Challenger, and not so good for the Charger.

How's that.
Bob

 

Sure, I'd say it's a fair enough comparison. Though the M6 will get toasted though will ride and drive a hell of a lot better, with much greater feature content, etc... so I'm not sure how interesting of a comparison it'd really make since the M6 is far less 'extreme' in its ideals of all-out performance.

No, the Vette weighs a respectable amount. The GT500 is extremely overweight, which is why you want to compare it to another (though not quite as) overweight car - the GTO.


So I suppose with all your exposure to them you're still unaware that the 21.7k Prius comes 'stripped' that way - load it up with all the techno goodies and it hits just under 30 grand. The Insight's only options are air conditioning and CVT trans, which bump it to 21.5 grand.

So yes, they are very different in intended purpose indeed. The Honda also gets far better milage but is considerably less comfortable do drive. The Honda is a true hybrid econo box. The Prius is the more luxury and technology oriented of the hybrids. And for just under 30 Gs loaded you'd hope it had something extra to offer.

The Accord Hybrid is a mid sized sedan - a monster compared to the ultra compact Prius and Inisight, and comes fully loaded by default. Its ultimate goal has absolutely nothing to do with great gas milage. It's more like 'so you wanted a loaded mid sized family sedan but want to get a little better gas milage and have a little better power output than the regular V6 Accord to boot?'

And regardless, this whole ridiculous discussion started when you tried to tell me the Prius was a fair comparison to the Mustang GT because their prices were the same and tried to act like that was no different than comparing the GT500 to the Vette.


Again, the prius, loaded up (which the Accord comes by default) is just under 30 grand. Not to mention we already discussed, the Accord is a completely different class of car. Just having a hybrid motor doesn't mean you are a hybrid economy car. In 2007 Lexus will be releasing a 450HP AWD Lexus LS600h. I bet its fuel economy figures will be an afterthought in the minds of most. The fact that it idles silent and provides 70 more ponies than the non hybrid version of the same car will be at the forefront of their minds, though.

What's that? Foot in your mouth? Get your facts straight before talking trash.


In the end you've given the most vague and sporadic reasoning I've seen to date and attempted to take this arguement on so many off-topic tangents I'm about ready to call it hopeless. Tell me exactly why the GTO should be compared to the GT500 and not the Vette again?
The only valid reason I've heard to date is that they both have 4 seats while the Vette only has 2. That's it. What else? They're both overweight?

 

LOL. Ok. If you think that is a "fair" comparison, that I guess nothing else needs to be said.

Testy testy. Personally, I think the idea that the Mustang was not designed to be a Sports car, but rather, a sporty coupe is what makes it comparable to the GTO. But then again, weight is a good metric too - which highlight the incredibly different automobiles that the Vette and the Mustang truly are.

Thank you for helping me make the point - albiet inadvertantly.

I'm sorry, I was simply comparing base MSRP, and showing that your statement was patently false - which you conveniently (and predictably) skipped right around.

Anyway, the Insight is less - not more than the Prius, so that is hardly an issue at all (ie...you were right about that one - and one out of 3 ain't bad, I'm told). My point is that Prius is the 2nd cheapest of 4 available Hybrid - which is totally contrary to your assertion that it was, and I quote "It costs more than most hybrids", thus making it a "premium hybrid" (new class for the EPA, no doubt).

Ummm...why are you harping on the Insight so much? I barely mentioned it - and only because it was available. I don't disagree with the fact that Prius is superior. Its not even close to the point I was trying to make, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

Ya, and its Hybrid. One might even call it a "premium hybrid", as it comes fully loaded by default, as you said.

Face it, you screwed the pooch on that one. Perhaps next time you won't take the bait so quickly?

LOL. Your lack of perception is amazing. Yes, I really do think the Prius should be compared to the Mustang GT. Honest Injun. You can quote me on that, if you like.

Really? It has the same amount of doors. The same "mission". The same technology, and - oh my God - virtually the same price (if you get the most expensive Prius and least expensive Accord possible, but that's just a detail).

Nope, I wouldn't compare em.

Bologna. Are you a mind-reader too? LOL, that is really TOOOOO funny.

My fine friend, my facts are out there for all to see - with references. I'm not the one trying to cover up.

Hmmmm....guess that means you don't agree with me? I've comed to the conclusion that this is a good thing, because I'd be more worried if you did.

By the way...ever heard of the phrase "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink?"

Isn't true. The right horse will drink till he's silly (er).

Scroll up.

X2. You keep telling yourself that though.

Have a great evening! Or morning, or whatever it is at your house.
Bob

PS....psst....feel free to find some fault with my reasoning to Gloveperson (who is nothing like you, BTW). Please.

 

Sigh...

Yes, Bob, you're so right.

The GT500 is a better comparison to the GTO because they're both overweight.

When I go car shopping I never think "how much 'car' can I get for my money?". Instead, I like every sane buyer think "I want an overweight performance car - no light weighters for me - I insist on bulk, damnit - let's compare the overweight performance cars out there - price be damned because I care more about being overweight that I do about a silly little 10 grand here or there - and then I'll see which one I like best"

Yep. That's exactly it.

You're so right. And while we're at it, comparing a Prius to a Mustang GT is just as much of a stretch as comparing the GT500 to the Vette. Yep, no difference there either.

And and while we're consoling you in every regard I'd also like to tell you that Ford is awesome and if they produce an overweight car it should never be compared to the car you could buy for the same amount of money if that car is lighter. That would be just flat-out unfair. Just like comparing the 1996-98 Mustang GT with 215 horsepower to the LT1 or LS1 of its time. That would make the Ford look bad, so instead it should be compared to something with comparable power output and performance... like the Pontiac Grand Prix. Yes, that would only be the logical comparison.

 

You mean thats not how you guys shop for your cars?

 

Well....we've degraded into pure sarcasm. Ok.

I have an opinion. Some agree, some don't.

LOL. This has to be your idea, cause nobody else has ever tried to push this.

It's pretty much incomprehensible how someone could pick a GT500 over a Vette, isn't it? Must be 10-15k pure dummies out there (some that will pay way over sticker) to get one. Overweight and all.

But hey, reading that was almost funny. Good job!

See that object up there? The one going way over your head? Fairly incomprehensible, right?

LOL. I'm glad you feel better after getting all that off your chest.

You have a great.....day/evening/afternoon.
Bob

Say...what do Audis get compared to? Having never actually seen one at the drag strip (though they obviously go there, per your sig), I've never paid attention to them and don't know. Thanks.

 

Audis get compared to BMWs and Mercedes, which I am sure that you know. These types of cars are not compared for their quarter mile prowess. Sure, a Mustang GT is in the price range of a Prius, but when does a Prius get tested for any of it's performance capabilities? Cars are typically paired against other cars when they share a particular strength that a buyer may be looking for. Again, something that I am sure you are aware of, as you appear to have your thoughts collected more often than not on this message board. The Prius shopper isn't going to say to himself "well looks like I can't land that extremely fuel efficient Prius, lets go look at that fuel thirsty Mustang which does pretty much exactly the opposite of what I want my vehicle to do". The Ford and the Chevy both got compared simply because the GT500 is Ford's halo performance car, and it matches up with the Vette in price, and both vehicles possess a similiar mantra with one another. I am sure you understood all of this as well. Maybe the GTO would have been a better matchup, but that matchup is not likely to sell as many magazines, or stir up the pot like the Mustang/Vette matchup did, and that is really what it came down to. I am sure this won't be the last time we read about this same matchup. Maybe the match up is unsound to a bunch of abstract observers reviewing it on a message board, but I know if I was about to unload $40k on a performance vehicle (toy), it would probably change my perspective quite a bit on what is stupid and what is not.

 

LOL. Uncle. I honestly can't believe I'm going to have to explain this. But...

Russ...the Prius/Mustang thing was not meant to be taken serious at face value. It was an attempt to show that though price is important, it is only one aspect of what makes one car 'similar' to another. I, personally, don't consider it to be the "most important" or "above all else" or whatever moniker one wishes to put on it. It is one piece, among many.

On the magazine thing...as has been pointed out, they will compare whatever they wish, whether we think it a "fair" comparison or not. And whether some will admit it or not, we all have biases, and that tends to affect what we think is "fair" and what isn't.

That said, I still don't see where "fair" comes into any of this (which is why I always put it in quote). It is either a good comparison or not - and what is good (or not) is subjective.

Personally, if I had $40 to spend on a performance vehicle, I'd either get a 2004 Z06 (and pocket a bit of change in return), or go back to racing Mustangs. Neither the LS2 Vette nor the GT500 would likely be on my particular short list of cars to buy.

To each their own.
Bob

 

I wasn't trying to say your opinion was wrong, so don't take it that way. I was just trying to offer a summary to help end the pointless bickering. You are right, what is a fair comparison, as far as this goes, is largely subjective, and therefore cannot be accurately put into absolute definitive terms in which to compare vehicles to everyone's liking. However, the magazines play no small part in helping lump vehicles up into their effective "groupings", and the magazines are going to group this particular Mustang with the base Corvette, as long as it will sell magazines, and it will.

 

It's the only reason you've given me, so far, other than number of seats, as to why the GTO and GT500 are more reasonably compared than the GT500 and Corvette.


Well let's review some simple facts:
-All out speed and performance is NOT the most important factor to the majority of the people who are buying these - the nostalgic retro looks, sound, and feel of the car are - as is the 'gotta have it' factor. For example: my dad is an example - he really likes the new mustang. If he got one he'd get a V8, but he'd never floor it or beat on it and wouldn't get THAT excited about the performance aspect anyway. He'd just like it because it reminded him of his youth. I'd never blame somebody like that for buying the Mustang either. I of all people understand that performance isn't always priority #1 when purchasing a car. But when we're a bunch of gearheads talking about two performance vehicles - that's all anyone cares about.. it seems.
-I'd bet you that more people cross-shopped the GT500 with the Vette than did the GTO. Just a hunch though - honestly I'm not sure and I don't think any of us could be without some sort of survey on the matter, which will never happen.
-The general public is not very well informed when it comes to car performance and other technicalities. Most people buy on emotion, not logic.
-I'd tend to wager the GT500 is a more comfortable riding car - again, more appealing to those less considered with performance and more concerned with just having a cool car
-The GT500 given the roots of its motor may or may not end up having a better performance for the dollar potential despite its weight in the end. Again, we're talking stock vehicles when making baseline comparisons, but still ... that's a factor not yet covered.

Simply a measure of your level of exageration. To me the difference between the Vette and GT500 is a fraction of the difference between the GT500 and the GTO - especially considering that to me - both cars are positioned similarly in their respective manufacturer's product offerings/lineup, and secondly, their prices are so similar.
Number of seats is WAY down that list and weight is nothing but a detractor - using it as a method of sepreration is just as ricey of an excuse as "no fair you have twice as many cylinders as I do"


The basic A4 2.0 turbo or 3.2 V6 is comparable to the Caddy CTS, BMW 3-series, Acura TL, and Lexus IS - though I feel its one of the weakest of all those I just mentioned due to its poor predicted reliability, and unacceptably noisey (for a 'luxury' branded vehicle) ride quality. The only reason I got it is that the lease deal on it was completely unbeatable by any of its competitors - $380/month including all taxes and fees, 15k miles a year, for only 24 months, absolutely zero down, all maintenance free. Plus it is a VERY fun car in the turns. Steering and suspension is second only to the BMW 3-series, and barely at that - which makes it a fun 'rental' to beat on - like fun trips to the track just for the heck of it.

There is then what is essentially the same car but sportier, called the S4, and then finally the RS4 which is even more expensive than the C6 but packs a 450hp detuned Lamborghini Gallerado motor with all wheel drive. It'd be a lot of fun to drive, but not my first choice for that sort of money, at ALL.

 

To get completely off topic, or maybe back on topic, I wonder if this car would have weight this much if Coliti was still at Ford. Also, the Challenger doesn't look that bad now compare to this car. One ex Chrysler engineer stated that the Challenger would probably be about 40k, given the numbers from an artical that was published about costs on the car.

To me, this makes any high performance Camaro look a LOT better. It will not take nearly as much power for a similar Camaro model to keep up with the Cobra.

Either way you slice it though, the V8 coupe market it looking very promising in the next 2 to 3 years. Just in time for me to get done with school

 

The GT500 will certainly be an interesting and fast car. And I'm sure we'll see better 1/4 mile times in the coming months. But for me, this formula would not be welcomed in a new Camaro. No way. I would reject it like a red headed stepchild (no offence to any red headed step children reading this).

Again, me personally, for the price of a GT500, I'd rather buy a Corvette Z51. Or for the price and weight of a GT500, I'd rather have a CTS-V.