350Z, IS300, Civic Si, Etc ? Have in Common?
07-29-2002, 01:25 AM
#1
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Akron Ohio
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350Z, IS300, Civic Si, Etc ? Have in Common?
After some thought, I realized that nearly every other manufacturer on the planet produces a vehicle that they know their customer will buy...except General Motors.
Take Honda for instance. Honda marketing folks knew that people who have Civics swap the DOHC Vtec engines. So Honda produced the DOHC engine in the Civic, and offered it to their customer for a reasonable price. Now we have bizillions of Blue Civic Si's running about.
Toyota knew they had customers wanting to buy a BMW type sport sedan, so they produced the IS300.
Nissian is the same story with the Sentra Spec V and the new 350Z....
Subaru listened to their customers and build the Impreza WRX for the US market.
Mitsubishi will follow suit with the Evolution VII next year...
GM is building trucks. i don't want a truck. I don't want a $35K touring sedan. I want a Camaro that is fast, affordable, and practicle (back seat, trunk, etc).
With all of the websites, magazines, and other vast resources of information, why can GM not understand that their customers are telling them what they want to spend their $$$ on? Or why don't they care? Or, why does it take them 5 years to fix something that took 1 year to screw up?
I normally don't rant, but I just read the article in Road and Track about the 350Z. I'd hate to have to buy a Nissian, but I will if there isn't anything out there when my '97 is paid off.
Scott
------------------
1997 Z28 MM6 Moroso CAI, Flomaster American Thunder, Taylor, Air Foil, SLP Headers, Crane Ignition, MAF, HPPIII, 4:10's, Summit Girdle, Drilled Rotors,
13.75@ 100.98 MPH
2.055 60'
No New Times With Gears....yet.
Take Honda for instance. Honda marketing folks knew that people who have Civics swap the DOHC Vtec engines. So Honda produced the DOHC engine in the Civic, and offered it to their customer for a reasonable price. Now we have bizillions of Blue Civic Si's running about.
Toyota knew they had customers wanting to buy a BMW type sport sedan, so they produced the IS300.
Nissian is the same story with the Sentra Spec V and the new 350Z....
Subaru listened to their customers and build the Impreza WRX for the US market.
Mitsubishi will follow suit with the Evolution VII next year...
GM is building trucks. i don't want a truck. I don't want a $35K touring sedan. I want a Camaro that is fast, affordable, and practicle (back seat, trunk, etc).
With all of the websites, magazines, and other vast resources of information, why can GM not understand that their customers are telling them what they want to spend their $$$ on? Or why don't they care? Or, why does it take them 5 years to fix something that took 1 year to screw up?
I normally don't rant, but I just read the article in Road and Track about the 350Z. I'd hate to have to buy a Nissian, but I will if there isn't anything out there when my '97 is paid off.
Scott
------------------
1997 Z28 MM6 Moroso CAI, Flomaster American Thunder, Taylor, Air Foil, SLP Headers, Crane Ignition, MAF, HPPIII, 4:10's, Summit Girdle, Drilled Rotors,
13.75@ 100.98 MPH
2.055 60'
No New Times With Gears....yet.
07-29-2002, 11:31 AM
#3
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Pittsburgh Pa USA
Posts: 403
GM hopefully is coming around, it's just taking a bit longer than we all wanted. The fact they're importing a sports car to help fill a void is promising (GTO). Now that an accuall person from GM even mentioned a new Camaro, and upgrading 4's and 6 bangers is also promising. GM with all of its money and resources, and following, has no excuse to come up with second rate performance. Let the vette go after viper with no excuses, keep the price tag low so it doesn't loose its market. Bring the F-body back with an updated designed and just as much mustang killing power as ever. Come up with better J-body platforms to destroy the Civic Si's of the world.
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1996 Camaro RS
Black M5 T-Top
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1996 Camaro RS
Black M5 T-Top
07-29-2002, 11:45 AM
#4
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yadkinville, NC USA
Posts: 3,180
Here's just an interesting thought to go along with what ScottZ said.
Just a few years back, GM was reluctant to take that dive into the SUV swimming pool. They thought that truck sales were sort of "maxed-out" and SUV sales might even cause truck sales to fall a bit, and not grow much themselves. That was when GM was head-strong into going all FWD and economical, as did other manufacturers. They were justified for thinking so at the time too - can anybody remeber the Chrysler comeback via Iacocca, based solely on "new" car technology (no trucks/SUVs involved), or anybody remember the "cab-forward" marketing frenzy there for a while?
But look at what has happened lately... GM has committed itself to making some of the best SUVs and trucks on the market, and they are doing pretty damned well at it too. If GM had done this back in '90 instead of 2000, the Blazer would be the #1 SUV instead of the Explorer - I feel certain. My point with the truck-thing is, since GM was late to commit to the game, they lost buyers (read marketshare) - and now are working hard to get them back, but they ARE coming back according to sales figures.
NOW - I can see sort of the same thing happening with sports car/muscle car enthusiasts. GM seems to have kind of left this niche high and dry for a bit, while they are refining their SUVs and trucks to a high level of success. Will they later divert attention back to the sports cars and come into play with some real quality cars? We can only hope so. But the profit margins on the SUV/Truck market are phenomenal - it's gonna be hard to justify working on niche cars based on $ alone.
I guess to me, the trick would be for GM to work on both cars AND trucks at the same time, not just "one or the other". And not just cars, but BOTH family cars AND specialty cars too (i.e. Impalas, Cavaliers, Bonnies, GPs, AND Camaros/Firebirds). After all, like many of you have said at other times... there IS a market for pony cars - Mustang proves it. IMHO, I think there always will be, given teenagers keep turning 16, college kids want to look good and afford it, and guys want a weekend warrior to take to the track on a budget.
Just my .02. Peace.
[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 29, 2002).]
Just a few years back, GM was reluctant to take that dive into the SUV swimming pool. They thought that truck sales were sort of "maxed-out" and SUV sales might even cause truck sales to fall a bit, and not grow much themselves. That was when GM was head-strong into going all FWD and economical, as did other manufacturers. They were justified for thinking so at the time too - can anybody remeber the Chrysler comeback via Iacocca, based solely on "new" car technology (no trucks/SUVs involved), or anybody remember the "cab-forward" marketing frenzy there for a while?
But look at what has happened lately... GM has committed itself to making some of the best SUVs and trucks on the market, and they are doing pretty damned well at it too. If GM had done this back in '90 instead of 2000, the Blazer would be the #1 SUV instead of the Explorer - I feel certain. My point with the truck-thing is, since GM was late to commit to the game, they lost buyers (read marketshare) - and now are working hard to get them back, but they ARE coming back according to sales figures.
NOW - I can see sort of the same thing happening with sports car/muscle car enthusiasts. GM seems to have kind of left this niche high and dry for a bit, while they are refining their SUVs and trucks to a high level of success. Will they later divert attention back to the sports cars and come into play with some real quality cars? We can only hope so. But the profit margins on the SUV/Truck market are phenomenal - it's gonna be hard to justify working on niche cars based on $ alone.
I guess to me, the trick would be for GM to work on both cars AND trucks at the same time, not just "one or the other". And not just cars, but BOTH family cars AND specialty cars too (i.e. Impalas, Cavaliers, Bonnies, GPs, AND Camaros/Firebirds). After all, like many of you have said at other times... there IS a market for pony cars - Mustang proves it. IMHO, I think there always will be, given teenagers keep turning 16, college kids want to look good and afford it, and guys want a weekend warrior to take to the track on a budget.
Just my .02. Peace.
[This message has been edited by ProudPony (edited July 29, 2002).]
07-29-2002, 12:23 PM
#5
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,463
All those cars are RICE!
Oh this is a serious post, oops.
Actually I think GM DOES make cars people want. Over 50% of new vehicle sales goes to trucks, and sport ute's. That is bread and butter for GM. So yes they build cars people want.
In fact you could turn this around and say they focus too much on what LARGE groups of people want that they froget the small nitch groups. Look how long it took them to build a Silverado SS and thats right off their best selling vehicle.
If 150,000 people per year were still buying Camaro/Firebirds we would be getting ready for 5th Gens by now.
GM more than the others looks at the bottom line and numbers don't lie. Tens of thousands don't get their attention like hundreads of thousands with profits in the billions.
Oh this is a serious post, oops.
Actually I think GM DOES make cars people want. Over 50% of new vehicle sales goes to trucks, and sport ute's. That is bread and butter for GM. So yes they build cars people want.
In fact you could turn this around and say they focus too much on what LARGE groups of people want that they froget the small nitch groups. Look how long it took them to build a Silverado SS and thats right off their best selling vehicle.
If 150,000 people per year were still buying Camaro/Firebirds we would be getting ready for 5th Gens by now.
GM more than the others looks at the bottom line and numbers don't lie. Tens of thousands don't get their attention like hundreads of thousands with profits in the billions.
07-29-2002, 12:28 PM
#6
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Ohio
Posts: 8,504
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 99SilverSS:
All those cars are RICE!
Oh this is a serious post, oops.
Actually I think GM DOES make cars people want. Over 50% of new vehicle sales goes to trucks, and sport ute's. That is bread and butter for GM. So yes they build cars people want.
In fact you could turn this around and say they focus too much on what LARGE groups of people want that they froget the small nitch groups. Look how long it took them to build a Silverado SS and thats right off their best selling vehicle.
If 150,000 people per year were still buying Camaro/Firebirds we would be getting ready for 5th Gens by now.
GM more than the others looks at the bottom line and numbers don't lie. Tens of thousands don't get their attention like hundreads of thousands with profits in the billions.</font>
All those cars are RICE!
Oh this is a serious post, oops.
Actually I think GM DOES make cars people want. Over 50% of new vehicle sales goes to trucks, and sport ute's. That is bread and butter for GM. So yes they build cars people want.
In fact you could turn this around and say they focus too much on what LARGE groups of people want that they froget the small nitch groups. Look how long it took them to build a Silverado SS and thats right off their best selling vehicle.
If 150,000 people per year were still buying Camaro/Firebirds we would be getting ready for 5th Gens by now.
GM more than the others looks at the bottom line and numbers don't lie. Tens of thousands don't get their attention like hundreads of thousands with profits in the billions.</font>
You have some good points there, but I'd like to add the following:
1) People who buy F-Bodies often buy another GM car or truck as well... A lot of the time they buy that S-10 or Malibu is because they own a Camaro.
2) Brand Loyalty... a young person who buys a Camaro today is more likely to be buying an Impala down the road, and a Cadillac after that. If that person has to buy a Mustang because there is no Camaro, that person will be driving Taurus' and Lincoln's as they grow older.
Camaro does more for Chevrolet, and GM than just the sales numbers and direct profit it makes itself...
07-29-2002, 12:59 PM
#8
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Yadkinville, NC USA
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Darth Xed:
Camaro does more for Chevrolet, and GM than just the sales numbers and direct profit it makes itself...</font>
Camaro does more for Chevrolet, and GM than just the sales numbers and direct profit it makes itself...</font>
Also, the car you really yearned for but couldn't afford when you were 16 becomes the toy you want when you get a little older and can afford it. If that car is no longer available, folks will go to something else that WAS available then, or restore and old one - either way the modern car sale is lost due to lack of availability.
All these little things add up to a lot more than just a bottom line for that particular model - they make a statement about the manufacturers loyalty, spirit, and commitment to their buyers. For example, look at the commitment and spirit displayed by Harley Davidson towards their products. The actual bike sale itself is just the beginning (and they don't sell a bazillion each year) - there's the aftermarket for parts, mods, and then there's the riding gear, chaps, helmets, saddlebags, etc. - all of which contribute to the company's bottom line. And look at the loyal following they enjoy! The situation with Mustangs and Camaros shouldn't be so different, IMO.
I see Silver's point about market size and profitability for sure. But if GM is willing to just let the niche market of musclecars/ponycars go because it's not big enough, I think they are making a mistake. It's a VERY LOYAL NICHE. Then, to do the Vette so well, and then drop to an S/C 6 cyl FWD car for the next offering doesn't make sense. We all know the Vette will never be allowed to die, right? So if anything, I would think another RWD V8 done properly could justify itself by helping distribute the cost of Vette development projects - a sort of "hand the old stuff down to the next car to depreciate the tooling, the Vette has new stuff coming" sort of deal. Sharing engines, trannys, suspension parts/tooling, etc. I dunno, anything to get an F5 in my book - I really think GM needs an F5 in the fray.
07-29-2002, 01:45 PM
#9
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Location: Akron Ohio
Posts: 127
Those are all valid points, but my opinion stays the same. GM spends too much $$ and effort on the truck market, because the truck market is destined to fail. Here's why, IMHO.
Why do people buy trucks? Because they cannot buy a car that can carry 5, tow a boat, get them to work comfortably, look stylish...etc..all the things that cars used to be. Notice the trend is turning toward the crossover type vehicles, like Subaru, Vibe, Aztec, Volvo Cross Country, Audi Wagon, etc. Why? Because people are finding out that trucks pretty much suck for your average person going to work. Poor gas mileage, poor ride quality, poor handling & braking, etc. Those are the same reasons that Iacocca gave for buying a front drive car compared to a rear drive car. History is repeating itself. People will soon turn on trucks and start buying cars again. Exspecially after the EPA starts madating the same regulations for trucks as cars, in paticular CAFE standards. At that point, manufacturers will have to choose between reducing trucks to front drive 4 cylinders, or leaving the truck market for people who need them and start marketing cars as vehicles for daily use.
Also, I agree that currently, better than half of the new vehicle market is made up of trucks an SUV's, but if I were a billion dollar corporation, I would not want to see 48% of my billions go to a company that does build cars that people want to buy.
Besides, they are talking about "brand Identity", why not let GMC be the brand for trucks, and leave chevys as cars, as they used to be.
Scott
------------------
1997 Z28 MM6 Moroso CAI, Flomaster American Thunder, Taylor, Air Foil, SLP Headers, Crane Ignition, MAF, HPPIII, 4:10's, Summit Girdle, Drilled Rotors,
13.75@ 100.98 MPH
2.055 60'
No New Times With Gears....yet.
Why do people buy trucks? Because they cannot buy a car that can carry 5, tow a boat, get them to work comfortably, look stylish...etc..all the things that cars used to be. Notice the trend is turning toward the crossover type vehicles, like Subaru, Vibe, Aztec, Volvo Cross Country, Audi Wagon, etc. Why? Because people are finding out that trucks pretty much suck for your average person going to work. Poor gas mileage, poor ride quality, poor handling & braking, etc. Those are the same reasons that Iacocca gave for buying a front drive car compared to a rear drive car. History is repeating itself. People will soon turn on trucks and start buying cars again. Exspecially after the EPA starts madating the same regulations for trucks as cars, in paticular CAFE standards. At that point, manufacturers will have to choose between reducing trucks to front drive 4 cylinders, or leaving the truck market for people who need them and start marketing cars as vehicles for daily use.
Also, I agree that currently, better than half of the new vehicle market is made up of trucks an SUV's, but if I were a billion dollar corporation, I would not want to see 48% of my billions go to a company that does build cars that people want to buy.
Besides, they are talking about "brand Identity", why not let GMC be the brand for trucks, and leave chevys as cars, as they used to be.
Scott
------------------
1997 Z28 MM6 Moroso CAI, Flomaster American Thunder, Taylor, Air Foil, SLP Headers, Crane Ignition, MAF, HPPIII, 4:10's, Summit Girdle, Drilled Rotors,
13.75@ 100.98 MPH
2.055 60'
No New Times With Gears....yet.
07-29-2002, 01:47 PM
#10
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Sterling Heights, MI
Posts: 6,166
Right on, Darth. Heck I think there's been studies done to show that Camaro/Firebird buyers are GM buyers, period. How many Camaro enthusiasts do you know drive a Ford truck as their other vehicle? There's more to the F-body story than just bottom line profit margins and units sold. The presence of the F-body assures an increased enthusiasm for GM as a whole.
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Mark
94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)
Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)
The F-body will NEVER die.
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Mark
94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.
(Hey, I'm a college boy I can't afford gobs of bolt-ons!)
Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)
The F-body will NEVER die.
07-29-2002, 06:13 PM
#11
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Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,873
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 99SilverSS:
Actually I think GM DOES make cars people want. Over 50% of new vehicle sales goes to trucks, and sport ute's. That is bread and butter for GM. So yes they build cars people want. </font>
Actually I think GM DOES make cars people want. Over 50% of new vehicle sales goes to trucks, and sport ute's. That is bread and butter for GM. So yes they build cars people want. </font>
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If it breaks, it wasn't high performance enough.
2001 Mustang Bullitt GT
2000 Jetta M5
07-30-2002, 09:36 PM
#12
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Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 2,612
Darth, great point. I was thinking about this. My dad's first real car was a 69 Z28 and he had amazing good luck with it. Since then our immediate family has had
0 Imports
0 Ford
1 Dodge (never again)
and 13 GM
cars/trucks, only one (for a total of two) was another Camaro (mine). If he woulda bought a Mustang and had good luck with it, Im sure I'd have a 5.0 right now. Brand loyality goes a lot further than production numbers, but the bean counters arnt close enough to reality to see that.
0 Imports
0 Ford
1 Dodge (never again)
and 13 GM
cars/trucks, only one (for a total of two) was another Camaro (mine). If he woulda bought a Mustang and had good luck with it, Im sure I'd have a 5.0 right now. Brand loyality goes a lot further than production numbers, but the bean counters arnt close enough to reality to see that.
08-02-2002, 12:38 PM
#13
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Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
As someone who came in from the cold (5 Mustangs & a Thunderbird SC), I'd have to say there is not one current car GM makes that I would buy. That having been said, I can see the GTO as my next car. That's about the only choice.
08-02-2002, 11:45 PM
#14
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 599
I was out looking at new cars this week, and skipped past the Chevy and Pontiac dealers, because I knew there was nothing there I'd want.
I went buy them anyways, after I went past every other dealer...
Still nothing I'd want.
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Jason
<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>
<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>
I went buy them anyways, after I went past every other dealer...
Still nothing I'd want.
------------------
Jason
<A HREF="http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/id/munche" TARGET=_blank>1997 A4 Z28 "Mongoose"
</A>
<A HREF="http://www.iz-us.com/images/cars/cougar/" TARGET=_blank>New Project: 1969 Mercury Cougar 351W
</A>
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